Coastal Command Halifax HR686 - colours

[woody37]

Hi guys,

 

I'm going to be starting this next but got a question....What colour would the gear and bomb bays be for this aircraft?

 

Thanks

[elger]

I don't have the answer but it's a really interesting question! I've been pondering about it though, and I think that whatever the answer is depends on two scenarios:

 

Scenario one: Coastal Command Halifaxes are repurposed bomber aircraft. As such, the aircraft's bomb bays and gear bays are painted black at the factory to match the aircraft's undersides. Then there are two questions: 1) are they repainted when the aircraft were picked up by Coastal Command and 2) if they were repainted, in what colour? White as per the undersides?

 

Scenario two: Coastal Command Halifaxes are diverted on the production line and the bomb bays and gear bays are painted per coastal command instructions. The bays are the same colour as other Coastal Command aircraft.

 

Gear legs do look to be white in photos, at least.

 

Looking forward to your next build! Happy Christmas!

 

 

Edited December 25, 2016 by elger

[woody37]

Thanks Elger,

 

That was the reason I am thinking some may be black. I'm sure I have seen picture somewhere indicating the inside of the gear doors to be silver, but not sure if this would be indicative of the whole gear area too.

 

Hopefully someone pops up with an answer.

 

Already started the engines as I'm using the Aeroclub set along with other bits from Freightdog & Quickboost. Being white, it's more sensitive to getting things right, so tempted with an etch bomb bay too!

 

Have a great Christmas too mate

 

 

 

[rossm]

These may help:

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205219002?cat=photographs

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205210673?cat=photographs

 

Halifaxes of 502 Squadron in what appear to be standard bomber colours (for low attack?) although the one framing the shot appears to have White undersides, possibly one of the 58 Sqdn examples shown in the following photo, taken at the same time.

[woody37]

Thanks Ross,

 

the close up up indicates that the bomb bay interior isn't black, does look white, although the gear bays could be black, hard to tell as it could be just a lack of light.

 

cheers

[Graham Boak]

Bear in mind that the Halifax carried its bombs three-abreast, not two-abreast as in the Revell kit.  To achieve this cut open the outer bay doors (just cut them along the front and rear and bend them out slightly) then position the inner doors slightly further outboard.  Hopefully the etch set will show this.

[woody37]

Hi Graham,

 

This aircraft was fitted with depth charges, do I need to do some investigating as to what they may of been. Thanks for the tip, not sure what you mean with the doors, but understand it is to make the space wider. I've now started a WIP.

 

Cheers

[tonyot]

Neil the Coastal Halibags carried long range tanks in the bomb bay and the bombd/ depth charges in the wing bays, I`ll see if I can find out more about your aircraft,.......when they moved north from the Biscay ops for ops around the Kattegatt they tended to retain the bomber scheme and don`t forget the .5 cal gun and added internal framework in the nose.

 

I didn my bomb bay and wheel wells black, but did the u/c white.

Cheers

              Tony

Edit,...if it helps here is a Coastal Halibag link;

Here is my Coastal Halibag model;

 

Edit,....Edit,......I didn`t realise that this one was one of the Tollerton nosed Halibags with the raised mid upper position,.....a photo and lots of info can be found here;

http://aircrewremembered.com/mcmanus-patrick.html

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by tonyot

[woody37]

Hi Tony,

 

tnays a great photo of the bomb bay, I may have a go at scratch building some tanks. I've been looking at your build, great inspiration and lovely finish. The wings gave been assembled, but now debating whether to open the wing panels up......hmmm.

[woody37]

On ‎12‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 8:09 PM, tonyot said:

 

 

I'm wanting to scratch build some of these tanks, what colour are they likely to be and does anyone have any idea what plumbing might be on show, I'm guessing at least transfer pipes between them?

 

Also, whist the letter J on HR686 has been described as being red, Corgi have done the die cast with a grey J. Is this in light of new info or have they got it wrong?

 

Any help appreciated

[elger]

Perhaps the tanks are a dark red like the Mosquito's fuselage fuel tanks.

 

As for the code letter colour, it might have been gray but Corgi is known for getting these things wrong so if that's the only source for gray I wouldn't follow that example.

[Nick Millman]

Codes on CC aircraft should have been Light Slate Grey except for those aircraft with Night under surfaces (scheme 'B') where they were specified to be Dull Red instead.

 

In the photo the code letter appears to have the same tone as the red of the fin flash which is perhaps where the idea came from? 

 

Nick

[tonyot]

I would go for grey for the code letter mate, it looks a tad lighter than the red of the fin flash to me, even Medium Sea Grey would do as I`ve seen this colour used on Coastal aircraft, as with this Sunderland;

and this one;

  .

This one from the same unit could have Light Slate Grey, which are a bit darker, or just be the same aircraft?

   

As for the bomb bay tanks,......they don`t look to be self sealing to me and to have been roughly painted black?

 

Cheers

           Tony

[Nick Millman]

FWIW I reckon all those Sunderland codes are probably Light Slate Grey, per requirements.

 

Perhaps selected for better visibility against white - Medium Sea Grey reflectivity 26% vs Light Slate Grey 14%. Dull Red was 10%.  

 

Nick

[woody37]

Thanks guys, grey it is then. It's amazing how to photo's of the same aircraft can appear so different, those two of the same Sunderland, the codes look much darker on the second image. I'll use what generic codes I have in the stash, but can over paint them if necessary with the correct shade.

 

I'm thinking of getting some balsa wood to form the basic shapes for the fuel tanks and wrapping plasticard around them. That will be last on the list as I need to see what space is left after fitting the doors.

 

Cheers

Neil

[rossm]

2 hours ago, Nick Millman said:

FWIW I reckon all those Sunderland codes are probably Light Slate Grey, per requirements.

 

Nick

 

Seconded, but getting generic Light Slate Grey codes and serials is a pain. AFAIK only Modeldecal and Flying High did them. I'm guarding the Modeldecals carefully but if some of the Flying High (48" from memory along with 8") will do just ask and they are yours - no idea of the quality though!

Ross

[woody37]

Thanks Ross.

 

I'm going to use the MSG decals I've got and perhaps overpaint them with some light slate grey if necessary

[rossm]

21 minutes ago, woody37 said:

Thanks Ross.

 

I'm going to use the MSG decals I've got and perhaps overpaint them with some light slate grey if necessary

 

I noticed you said that but thought you might struggle with the 8" serials as I'm not sure you can get them in any kind of grey.

[Graham Boak]

Ventura sold a sheet with serials in light grey, but they may have been 6".

 

When you look at the model parts, the bomb-bay door question should be clearer.  Revell have only given us the inner doors as separate parts, but have cut a groove on the inside of the fuselage so that you can cut out and detach the outer ones.   Or partially cut-out and gently bend outwards... the photo of the tanks shows the correct position of the inner doors when open, the outer-ones are hidden from view.  Revell also went part-way to providing the inner wing bays, as you'll see examining the inside of the wing parts.  White Ensign provided the structure and carriers for the wing bays, but they were designed for the Matchbox kit.  I found the front protruded slightly from the Revell wing.

[woody37]

20 hours ago, rossm said:

 

I noticed you said that but thought you might struggle with the 8" serials as I'm not sure you can get them in any kind of grey.

 

Kits world do a set of white & grey 8" that I've got here fortunately, I had to go and check then after you said that!

 

I'm going to leave the wing bomb bays closed or this will turn in to a much longer build if I go down that route and I'd like to finish more this year to keep the stash under control!

 

Does anyone have any information on the gun & mount in the Coastal Tollerton noses? Although difficult to see, there is a gun as you would expect for sub attacks but I can't tell if its a .303 or .5 and can't tell if it protrudes through the windown or just below it. I've been through all my books and cant find anything better than this, but leaving it out on a sub killer would be wrong.

 

 

Thanks

[rossm]

Looking at the latest Merrick book on the Halifax there is no indication in the text that the Tollerton nose was fitted with a gun and none in the photos except for a copy of the same one you found. However all the others are Bomber Command examples. I agree it looks as if there is a gun in this photo and you would expect one on a CC aircraft but I'd only go to about 80% in interpreting this photo as showing a gun as, in the print in Merrick, there is another line at the same angle visible above the window so there could be something else going on with the print. If there is one I would imagine it would be a .303 Vickers K as it seems to be fairly short.

 

It's all down to interpretation for me, could be you're stirring up another controversy here

 

There is a report in the National archives titled 'Use of Whitleys and Halifaxes for anti-submarine patrols' under reference AIR 14/617 according to my notes, don't know if that would help?

Edited January 1, 2017 by rossm

[woody37]

Thanks Ross, I could well be stirring up a controversy!

 

It would be much easier to have no gun, but its better to check before the nose gets fitted (so unlike me!!) rather than after. A Vickers was my thought looking at the photo, but it is very fuzzy and none of the BC aircraft had them so it appears.

 

The national archives may hold the answer, but this isn't available on line, you have to order a copy. I may go down the route of the Vickers gun.

 

Cheers

[dogsbody]

I've done a quick look through my Halifax references and couldn't find any images of a CC Tollerton-nosed Hally with a nose gun. In Osprey's Combat Aircraft #14, I did find this profile:

 

 

 

while in Warpaint No. 46, there was this profile:

 

 

 

 

I didn't re-read those books as I didn't have the time. As for photos, the one woody37 posted above is the only one that I saw. I did see a couple slightly better versions of that photo and in my opinion there isn't a gun in the nose. It's just some small blemish on a much-used photo.

 

 

Chris

Edited January 2, 2017 by dogsbody

[woody37]

Thanks Chris for posting them.

 

I've added a Vickers in to the nose as from what I've been reading about attack tactics, the front gun on those equipped was used often on approach to a sub as it would be the only means of defense to keep the sub gunners at bay.

 

Cheers

[heloman1]

Lots of banter re your build Neil, which is good. lots of info coming forth. I like your build, it 's very interesting although as you know i'm not interested in WWII.

 

Colin