1:72 Fujimi BAe Sea Harrier FRS.1

[Navy Bird]

Another silly question: how common was it for an FRS.1 to carry the center fuselage pylon while the Aden gun pods were also being carried? I have just one photo in my references that show this configuration.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Dr Evil]

On 20/12/2016 at 3:13 AM, Navy Bird said:

I also have an old Micro- or SuperScale sheet with several EDSG over White aircraft with squadron crests and artwork. These are XZ451 from 700 Squadron with the red A on the tail, XZ454 from 800 Squadron with the red chevron and crossed swords, XZ457 from 899 Squadron with the white bird, and XZ498 from 801 Squadron with a circular crest. All are shown with the funky refueling probe. Any of those guys famous for anything?

 

Don't think anyone's answered your question, a quick google (so might need double checking) suggests three have very interesting histories...

 

XZ451 was the first SHAR delivered to the RN and shot down a Canberra, Pucara and C-130, and inflicted damage on a Mentor during the Falklands conflict.

 

XZ457 during the Falklands was credited with two Daggers and a Skyhawk shot down, with a further Skyhawk damaged. It was found later the damaged Skyhawk crashed with U/C failure whilst trying to land at Stanley so was also credited as a kill.

XZ498 was shot down over Bosnia by an SA-7 as detailed in Lt Richardson’s book 'No Escape Zone'

 

[Navy Bird]

On 01/01/2017 at 14:37, Dr Evil said:

Don't think anyone's answered your question, a quick google (so might need double checking) suggests three have very interesting histories...

 

XZ451 was the first SHAR delivered to the RN and shot down a Canberra, Pucara and C-130, and inflicted damage on a Mentor during the Falklands conflict.

 

XZ457 during the Falklands was credited with two Daggers and a Skyhawk shot down, with a further Skyhawk damaged. It was found later the damaged Skyhawk crashed with U/C failure whilst trying to land at Stanley so was also credited as a kill.

XZ498 was shot down over Bosnia by an SA-7 as detailed in Lt Richardson’s book 'No Escape Zone'

 

Great information, thanks so much. The Microscale sheet includes the high visibility markings for these birds, all quite colourful. I'm leaning towards XZ451 because I like that big red "A" on the tail. The Flying Fist on XZ457 is pretty cool, too. (Anyone seen the Flying Finger zap?)

 

I've also been looking at the tyres. According to pprune.org, these are the size tyres used on the Sea Harrier:

 

Front tyre: 26 x 8.75-11
Main landing gear tyres: 27 x 7.75-13
Outriggers: 13 1/2 x 6.00-4

 

The Hasegawa kit features the same size tyre for both the front and main gear. In the Fujimi kit, the front gear tyre is significantly smaller than the main gear tyre. I got out the digital verniers, and measured all of the tyres. The following are those measurements multiplied by 72:

 

Hasegawa: Front - 26"   Main - 26"

Fujimi: Front - 24"   Main - 27"

 

Based on this, I should use the Hasegawa front tyre and the Fujimi main tyre. Since the front landing gear is moulded as one piece with the front tyre, I will need to use the Hasegawa strut too. However, the Hasegawa main tyres are moulded much nicer, and include the brake mechanism on the back side of the hub. Fujimi does not. Since the actual difference between the two sets of main tyres is only 0.013", I think I'll use Hasegawa for both front and main tyres. The nose gear tyre will look much better for sure.

 

These little issues may not seem like much, but when you add them all together, I think the model looks better overall. But we won't know until I finish this puppy, so back to work! (The wing and tail fin have been added to the fuselage, and I'm in my putty and sand cycle again. Once I have a coat of primer on, there will be some more photos.)

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Dave Fleming]

7 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

Another silly question: how common was it for an FRS.1 to carry the center fuselage pylon while the Aden gun pods were also being carried? I have just one photo in my references that show this configuration.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

Not uncommon, they sometimes carried a bomb in the Falklands  whilst on CAP in case of targets of opportunity.

[Procopius]

Just now, Dave Fleming said:

 

Not uncommon, they sometimes carried a bomb in the Falklands  whilst on CAP in case of targets of opportunity.

 

Interesting, I would have thought that would further reduce their rather circumscribed loiter time.

 

 

[Dave Fleming]

10 minutes ago, Procopius said:

 

Interesting, I would have thought that would further reduce their rather circumscribed loiter time.

 

 

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205190536

 

although in peacetime I suspect it was less common

Edited January 2, 2017 by Dave Fleming

[Dave Fleming]

8 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

 

 

 

I took the opportunity to have a closer look at the Airfix FA.2 kit, and I think I know why it was on the bottom of the pile. It doesn't look much better than their FRS.1. Hmm - so if a modeller wanted a better FA.2, is that Xtrakit/Special Hobby kit any good? Or a conversion from, say, the ESCI FRS.1? If I remember correctly, the FA.2 has a plug in the fuselage behind the wings that makes it longer.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

The Special Hobby one is a curates egg, the shapes are better than Airfix but a lot of the detail is missing.

 

I have toyed with using the bits of it's fuselage with an ESCI kit. The best conversion was one by Scalecast who supplied the whole of the rear fuselage and not just the plug. The Heritage one is pretty crude.

[junglierating]

6 minutes ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205190536

 

although in peacetime I suspect it was less common

Hmm I seem to remember sticking my head up in to panel 101(think that was the panel)and figure of eight wirelocking the centre line pylon quite a few times in the late 80/early 90s so yes it was quite common .

However it could role change overnight so you can't pin down a particular a/c or period.

[Procopius]

1 minute ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205190536

 

 

Oh, I wasn't doubting you!

 

[Navy Bird]

14 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

The Special Hobby one is a curates egg, the shapes are better than Airfix but a lot of the detail is missing.

 

I have toyed with using the bits of it's fuselage with an ESCI kit. The best conversion was one by Scalecast who supplied the whole of the rear fuselage and not just the plug. The Heritage one is pretty crude.

 

Thanks for that info. I found a nice review of the SH kit, and it seems odd that the wing vortex generators are represented by engraved panel lines! Since the wings on the SH are butt-joined to the fuselage just like the Hasegawa FRS.1 kit, I wonder if the latter's wings could be used? I'll have a lot of parts left over from the Hasegawa kit when I finish this Fujimi build. IIRC, the FA.2 wing has a couple of vortex generator vanes removed compared to the FRS.1 wing, but are there any other differences? 

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Dave Fleming]

3 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

 

IIRC, the FA.2 wing has a couple of vortex generator vanes removed compared to the FRS.1 wing, but are there any other differences? 

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

The inner dog tooth is removed and replaced with a kinked leading edge. I've got a schematic somewhere that shows all the changes

[junglierating]

3 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

The inner dog tooth is removed and replaced with a kinked leading edge. I've got a schematic somewhere that shows all the changes

Like to see that Dave ...thought the wing was morecor less the same but then I wasn't modelling at the time just walking up and down thewing to get somewhere....engine cockpit etc....you don't tend to notice ....tell what I did notice ....on the dark grey a/c cleaning the wings with wadpol to get rid of the boot marks just to show the a/c off at  c**k & a**e parties 

[Dave Fleming]

My brain said outer but I typed inner...... there is also an additional wing fence

 

FRS1

 

FA2

[Navy Bird]

On 02/01/2017 at 14:30, Dave Fleming said:

The inner dog tooth is removed and replaced with a kinked leading edge. I've got a schematic somewhere that shows all the changes

 

Thanks, Dave, that sounds like an easy fix. I would think the big "if" surrounding the use of the Hasegawa FRS.1 wings on the SH FA.2 kit will be the location of the separation line, i.e. where they attach to the fuselage. From sprue photos, they look quite similar so maybe it might work.

 

In the meantime, the Eduard PE set for the Airfix FRS.1 has a lot of little details, so I figured I might as well use some of them. First, I used the part for the inside of the air brake which has some noticeable rivets. The Fujimi part is completely smooth. The Eduard piece fit reasonably well (after I shortened the length of the air brake) and also included a nice little bracket for the actuator.

 

 

 

There is a bit of trimming yet to do, but I think it will make a big difference in the appearance of the air brake. Next, I added the lash-down loops to each side of the outrigger wheels. Hope they stay on - Eduard give you an extra pair! 

 

 

I have the Pavla nozzle set that is intended for the Airfix kit, and I wanted to see if they would fit the Fujimi fuselage. After separating them from their blocks, it's just a matter of sanding down the bottom until the height is short enough so they slide in under the fairing. But they fit, and they'll make a big difference too. 

 

 

The Fujimi nozzles are two part, and don't feature a lot of depth in the vanes. I didn't assemble any of them, but here is a comparison with the Pavla nozzles. I think Pavla have a better shape as well, and look more like the real thing.

 

 

I decided previously to use the Hasegawa nose gear, due to the tyre size, and I wanted you to see the difference. Fujimi is on the right.

 

 

The Fujimi strut isn't long enough either, at least compared to the Russian drawings. The aircraft needs to have that nose-high "sit" or it will look odd. I measured the nose gear height on the drawing, and I'll make the Hasegawa gear match that.

 

In-between my massive putty, sand, repeat sessions today I also had a look at the Aden cannon pods. Those supplied by Fujimi are pretty lame. They don't have any of the vents or the notch out of the top (bottom?) blister. Plus, they don't conform to the fuselage very well, and some fettling would be necessary. These are the Hasegawa pods, which are marginally better:

 

 

They will need a hole drilled in the front for the cannon, plus the vents and I think there may be an opening at the aft end? I don't have a lot of good photos of the pod as carried on the Harrier, but I think there is also a blister on the inner side as well? Strangely enough, the Hasegawa pods conform almost perfectly to the Fujimi fuselage. I don't think any filler would be required. At one point, Pavla made what looked like a nice set of resin Aden pods - I may have a look and see if they're still available anywhere. I'm a resin freak.    

 

Close to paint! 

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

EDIT: I keep forgetting about p1127.co.uk - plenty of great photos there of the Aden pod. I think I can make the Hasegawa pods work, so sorry Pavla. Maybe next time! 

[Dave Fleming]

The gun pods have a hole at the back and a little centre brace - see Graham's photos:

 

http://p1127.co.uk/Harrier/HarrierGR3/slides/XZ997-W030.JPG

 

Some other useful shots:

 

http://p1127.co.uk/Harrier/HarrierGR3/index.html

 

 

 

The idea of using the Hasegawa wings on the SH FA2 is an interesting one, must dig one out - my last FA2 was an ESCI/Heritage conversion which was a pig.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Dave Fleming

[Navy Bird]

29 minutes ago, Dave Fleming said:

The idea of using the Hasegawa wings on the SH FA2 is an interesting one, must dig one out - my last FA2 was an ESCI/Heritage conversion which was a pig.

 

I just spent about half an hour going through the Xtrakit (SH) FA.2 build review on the Flory Models website while I had the Hasegawa rear fuselage in my hands for comparison. Let's just say that the strong resemblance between the Hasegawa and SH rear fuselage halves is, shall we say, an amazing coincidence!

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. I found the SH "High Tech" version (with resin interior and PE fret) of the FA.2 on eBay for $18 and free shipping. I bought it. I'm such a sucker.

[Navy Bird]

Question time again!  

 

The Eduard photoetch set that I'm using (designed for the Airfix FRS.1) includes two pitot tubes for either side of the nose, aft of the radome. However, the thoroughly excellent build of the 1:24 FRS.1 in the SAM Datafile does not have these pitots, and I can't say that I see any in my photos. I see them on the FA.2, but not on the FRS.1. I see a pressure sensor on the starboard side, and a yaw vane on top, along with a bunch of antennae, but no pitots. 

 

So are these another Eduard fabrication. or were they used at some time?

 

Also, did I make a rookie error by painting the inside of the intakes white? I'm planning on an EDSG over white scheme, and have been following the Hasegawa instructions. They say white for EDSG over white birds, and fuselage colour for those in overall grey. I hope that's right, it will be a big pain to fix that now...

 

Cheers,

Bill

[TheBaron]

Took me over a week to notice this Bill. Illuminating and enjoyable as always.

Tony

[Dave Fleming]

4 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

Question time again!  

 

The Eduard photoetch set that I'm using (designed for the Airfix FRS.1) includes two pitot tubes for either side of the nose, aft of the radome. However, the thoroughly excellent build of the 1:24 FRS.1 in the SAM Datafile does not have these pitots, and I can't say that I see any in my photos. I see them on the FA.2, but not on the FRS.1. I see a pressure sensor on the starboard side, and a yaw vane on top, along with a bunch of antennae, but no pitots. 

 

So are these another Eduard fabrication. or were they used at some time?

 

Also, did I make a rookie error by painting the inside of the intakes white? I'm planning on an EDSG over white scheme, and have been following the Hasegawa instructions. They say white for EDSG over white birds, and fuselage colour for those in overall grey. I hope that's right, it will be a big pain to fix that now...

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

That's how I remember the intakes. The FRS1s didn't have the side probes

[Navy Bird]

2 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

That's how I remember the intakes. The FRS1s didn't have the side probes

 

Thanks! As I look at more reference photos of the intakes, I "think" I see a large X at the bottom on the inside lip of the "elephant ears." If this is true, I assume it means no step? Is the X red like the ones on the top engine access panel? 

 

I need to stop researching and start painting!    

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

EDIT: I found a good photo in this collection that shows the X at the bottom of the intake. But it also shows the intakes EDSG, not white! Somebody pinch me and say this is just a museum restoration and it's not authentic...

 

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/howard_mason4/sea_harrier_frs1/

 

[Dave Fleming]

Yes, it's not even a real Sea Harrier, it's the nose from a crashed Sea Harrier attached to the rest of an RAF GR3.

 

Now I'm doubting myself, somewhere, I might have details of the SHar paint scheme, I'll have a hunt.

 

couple of shots in this video suggest that Yeovilton got it right

 

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Dave Fleming

[Navy Bird]

On 1/4/2017 at 04:25, Dave Fleming said:

Yes, it's not even a real Sea Harrier, it's the nose from a crashed Sea Harrier attached to the rest of an RAF GR3.

 

Now I'm doubting myself, somewhere, I might have details of the SHar paint scheme, I'll have a hunt.

 

couple of shots in this video suggest that Yeovilton got it right

<snip>

 

Arghh, I think I've been reading the Hasegawa instructions backwards. The note that points to the inside of the intakes says:

 

Same colour as fuselage

Paint Scheme 1 & 2

H1 White

 

Schemes 1 & 2 are the EDSG over white markings. I thought this note meant the intakes were the same colour as the fuselage except for schemes 1 & 2 where they are white. Apparently it means same colour as the fuselage for schemes 1 & 2, and all others are white. Therefore, an overall DSG, Barley Grey, or EDSG would have white intakes. Like this one for example:

 

 

Well, I'll either have to figure out a way to paint the inside of the intakes now that everything is assembled, or switch to an overall grey scheme. Hmm...this begs a question though - when the Sea Harriers were being repainted on their way to the South Atlantic, they repainted the inside of the intakes, too? 

 

Great video, by the way!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[junglierating]

Hmm XZ493 not doubting you and indeed the aircraft was stitched together after it stoved in in the Adriatic but I'm not sure it was matched with a gr3.

That said I'm over Cobham hall tomorrow looking for a shar canopy or an NSN for one ,long store but it's actually for work....but I work with Merlin and Lynx mk10 ah well at least it's not a predictable job.I shall enquire.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by junglierating
daftness

[Navy Bird]

Just for giggles, I took the Hasegawa bulkhead that incorporates the front end of the engine, and I measured the diameter of the fan. I made a circle of that size from copy paper and was able to slip it in front of the assembled Fujimi engine face inside my intake. This was possible because the fans do not actually contact the portion of the front fuselage (splitter plate?) that is directly in front of them on my model. Just enough room for a piece of paper to slip in...I planned it that way, really, I did.

 

The paper was a perfect size match to the fan blades, so I sprayed some EDSG on the inside of the intakes. Looks like it worked with no problems. I have, however, left the piece of paper covering the fan blades until such time as I have a definitive answer on the colour that the intakes should be, and also that I make my final decision about the scheme. Just in case I need to respray white inside!    

 

I also found this in the SAM Datafile, describing 800 and 899 Squadron Sea Harriers on HMS Hermes in the EDSG over White scheme prior to Operation Corporate:

 

"Intake interiors of all aircraft were EDSG except where the white undersurface colour overlapped by about 6" into the intakes."

 

Not sure how I missed that before, I must have read that book a hundred times. I assume other squadrons in that scheme were the same.

 

Back to modelling - just finished adding the center pylon and the Aden pods. I drilled out the cannon barrel and the vent holes on the Aden pods. There are just two small spots where I need some filler to fair the pod into the fuselage. The Hasegawa Aden pods fit the Fujimi fuselage like a glove! 
 

Cheers,

Bill

[Dave Fleming]

1 hour ago, junglierating said:

Hmm XZ493 not doubting you and indeed the aircraft was stitched together after it stoved in in the Adriatic but I'm not sure it was matched with a gr3.

 

 

I have seen a couple of (private) pictures showing the cross-kitting! They basically put the FRS1 nose on the GR3 fuselage. A big clue is it has/had a GR3 airbrake. The donor airframe was XV760, one of the ones used by the RN for ground purposes after their retirement from the RAF -  the nose of which survives at Southampton.

 

This was XZ493 after the crash:

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Dave Fleming