RAC Training Regiments - Seeking expert help

[Vicarage Vee]

I wonder if anyone can assist?

 

I am seeking to model (in 1:76) a representative vehicle from either/or both 54th Training Regt RAC circa 1940/41 and 61st Training Regt RAC circa 1943/44.

 

I've looked in war diaries and there is no clue as to the tanks on strength.  I am assuming that they would be obsolete types at the respective times, but is there any information on exactly what would be representative?  Unit markings, if any, are also a mystery to me.

 

With grateful thanks for any help.

 

 

 

[JackG]

Am surprised there is no mention of a single tank type found in the diaries.

 

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There is a huge depository of tank names and census (vehicle) numbers found here, http://mmpbooks.biz/mmp/tables/Vehicle_Names_V3.pdf

..... but sadly no listing of any vehicles from those two training regiments.

 

One of my sources for markings has some illustrations from gunnery schools, though this isn't quite what you are after:

http://media.wix.com/ugd/279ff1_148e00e82bc2417c8a685367abd146d2.pdf

http://media.wix.com/ugd/279ff1_930f6fac69254989a1faec436ece0c85.pdf

 

The marking with RAC colours (red and yellow) and black cannon is interesting, perhaps the RAC had it similar, but with the mailed fist, similar to the cap badge?

 

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Dick Taylor did a series of books that might have some info.  If you can find someone in possession of these, perhaps they could take a look...

 

 

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Last resort would be to find a veteran from that period, and hope their memory can can be of some revelation.  WW2talk forums might be a place for such an inquiry.

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/59th-training-regiment-tidworth-posted-to-k-armoured-corps.49526/

 

regards,

Jack

 

[Vicarage Vee]

Many, many thanks Jack. I will try and follow up those leads: it had been a frustrating search. 

 

The war diaries were a disappointment,  they consist of personnel movement almost exclusively, no census of vehicle types or anything.  They are very brief.

[Centaur95]

It's unlikely you'd have obselete types in a training unit (except right at the start of WWII). The most likely candiates would be Covenanters for much of the 1940-42 period. After that you'd see Valentines, Churchills, Grants, Shermans and Centaurs/Cromwells (earlier marks perhaps, but definitely frontline types). Each school would probably specialise in certain types of training - perhaps one for 'infantry tanks' (Valentines, Churchills) and another for 'cruiser' tanks (Covenanter, Crusader, Cromwell etc). Others would be armoured car schools. Basic tracked vehicle training would often be carried out using Universal Carriers before trainees graduated to larger types.

 

It's also possible that some of these RAC Training units were basic training schools (square-bashing and rifle drill etc) for newly recruited RAC personnel and no training vehicles were issued. Trained personnel would then transfer to more specialist schools to train as Driver/Operators, Gunners and other roles. It's also common to see reference to personnel receiving their vehicle-specific training when they arrived at their battalion (D/Os particularly).

 

Whilst I think about it, they were Battalions, not regiments. A Regiment is an administrative body that 'manages' anything from a single battalion to dozens of battalions. It's the battalions that are deployed to active service.

 

54th Battalion, Royal Armoured Corps

61st Battalion, Royal Armoured Corps

 

Take the Royal Tank Regiment - there's only ever been one RTR in the British Army but it has at times contained many battalions, usually referred to as 1 RTR, 2 RTR, 3 RTR etc. It's a common mistake to assume that 1 RTR means 1st Royal Tank Regiment - it actually means 1st Battalion of the Royal Tank Regiment.

 

War Diaries are a strange mix of information. Some are comprehensive narrative documents recorded on a daily basis that contain lots of extra detail. Others are really basic summaries of the unit's activities on a month by month basis. Some contain lists of vehicle deliveries and departures, (some even with census numbers) whilst others never mention the vehicles at all. Rather than looking at the actual war diaries it may be worth pursuing higher level records (GHQ or War Office training documents for example) as these may have better data on which school did what. Equally, RAC records may help determine what vehicles were assigned to which units (but I'm guessing). I know from my own experience that you find the most interesting data in the most unexpected places so you have to be prepared to dig relentlessly along different routes.

 

Markings - no idea but it is likely the schools came directly under the command of GHQ Home Forces and would carry the unit markings of those formations. Dick Taylor states in his Warpaint series that 'War Office  directed military schools vehicles' carried a square divided into quarters (black top left and bottom right and white bottom left and top right). Arm of Service codes may be a black square with a white stripe across the bottom (to denote GHQ troops) but that's just a guess. At this level of command, actual serial numbers might be assigned in blocks so there would not necessarily be a logic to how they were assigned to each unit.

 

Cheers,

Centaur

[Vicarage Vee]

I can't thank you enough Centaur, very, very helpful and informative and much to follow up now.

 

I am very tempted by a Covenanter now, it embodies training really.

[SleeperService]

Bit late to the party but my marking books were elsewhere.

 

Further to Centaur's post there should be a white bar above the quartered square with the training unit's name in abbreviated form (from Warpaint and Hodges & Taylor). Terry Wise's Bellona book and Hodges & Taylor both give the AoS background as green. Black seems to be HQ troops only. As a separate unit;

 

Quartered square - War Office control

Title Bar - unit identifier

Green - RAC training unit

Serial number - ?

 

I have found some files at Kew that may help;

 

WO 24/1098 War Establishment Serial numbers 1 - 199 training home & misc. units

WO 199/587 Armoured Formations state of equipment November 1942

WO 199/822 RAC Training equipment 1/6/43 to 28/2/45

WO 199/820 RAC Training equipment 1/4/44 to 28/2/45

WO 199/847 Issue of 'A' vehicles Nov. 43 to July 44

WO 199/851 Organisation Home Forces

WO 199/819 RAC Policy and reorganisation 1/4/44 to 30/6/45

WO 165/131 to 7 inc. are RAC progress reports 5 to 11

 

I'm arranging a trip down to Kew at some stage soon so will check there unless someone goes beforehand.

 

Finally here is George Forty's list from the British Army Handbook of Training Regiments;

 

21st Training Regiment RAC – 1944–45

51st Training Regiment RAC – Cavalry Depot, Catterick

52nd Training Regiment RAC – RTR Depot, Bovington

53rd Training Regiment RAC – Tidworth

54th Training Regiment RAC – Perham Down (Barnard Castle from 1943)

55th Training Regiment RAC – Farnborough

56th Training Regiment RAC – Catterick

57th Training Regiment RAC – Warminster (Catterick from 1943)

58th (Young Soldiers) Training Regiment RAC – Bovington Trained NCOs and Junior Officers only

59th Training Regiment RAC – Armoured Cars, Tidworth (In 1943 according to Tom Canning on WW2 Talk they were on the Bishop Auckland road from Durham 3 miles past Streatham camp.

60th Training Regiment RAC – Tidworth

61st Training Regiment RAC – Tidworth (In 1943 according to Tom Canning on WW2 Talk they were at Streatham Camp Durham)

62nd Training Regiment RAC – Recce Training Centre, Catterick (Armoured Cars only?)

 

I hope this helps a bit.

 

[Vicarage Vee]

Fantastic, thank you so much for going to the trouble to give such detailed information, that helps enormously.