Airfix B-17G interior color

[Ingo Degenhardt]

Hi everyone,

I am about to start my Airfix B-17G and would like to know if it would be alright to follow the instructions and paint almost all of the interior sidewalls, etc. in aluminium to resemble unpainted natural Aluminium.

I somewhere here read a thread about B-17 interior colors some time ago but can't find it anymore. IIRC the general outcome of the discussion was that B-17s could have appeared in almost any combination of painted and unpainted interior sections.

Would it be likely for a late B-17G like the Airfix "Skyway Chariot"  to have been left unpainted inside - regarding side walls and bulkheads?

 

My second queston is about the interior green itself - Airfix instructions say Humbrol 195 Dark Green. I would like some opinions about Airfix' choice of color and maybe a recommendation for alternatives because I do not have 195 amongst my Humbrol cans.

Ingo

[tonywood]

If I remember correctly the Boeing interiors were painted Bronze Green, when I was building my Academy one I found an excellent site detailing USAAF interior colours but cant remember the adress now.

[tomprobert]

For the late model G you plan to build, exposed metal in the cockpit was the only area with any paint, and this was Bronze Green or Dark Dull Green. Sidewalls were covered in an olive green padding. 

 

All other areas of the interior, from the nose through to the tail turret were unpainted. It is a very common misconception when it comes to B-17s that they were painted internally, but from the prototype to the last one off the production line, no interiors were painted, especially not US Interior Green as often seen on models. Some small components made by subcontractors may have had some paint (dark dull green) but this was limited to some rear fuselage frames and the like - the skin was natural metal. 

 

Early model B-17s (up until early batch F models) had sound proofing covered in an olive green fabric, but this was usually removed once in combat. 

 

Modern day warbirds are often painted interior green (rather than dark dull green) but this is for anti-corrosion purposes and is not historically accurate. 

 

Hope that helps.

 

Tom

[bentwaters81tfw]

^+1

[Ingo Degenhardt]

50 minutes ago, tomprobert said:

For the late model G you plan to build, exposed metal in the cockpit was the only area with any paint, and this was Bronze Green or Dark Dull Green. Sidewalls were covered in an olive green padding. 

 

All other areas of the interior, from the nose through to the tail turret were unpainted. It is a very common misconception when it comes to B-17s that they were painted internally, but from the prototype to the last one off the production line, no interiors were painted, especially not US Interior Green as often seen on models. Some small components made by subcontractors may have had some paint (dark dull green) but this was limited to some rear fuselage frames and the like - the skin was natural metal. 

 

Early model B-17s (up until early batch F models) had sound proofing covered in an olive green fabric, but this was usually removed once in combat. 

 

Modern day warbirds are often painted interior green (rather than dark dull green) but this is for anti-corrosion purposes and is not historically accurate. 

 

Hope that helps.

 

Tom

Thanks Tom,

this helps indeed. So Airfix got it right as they only have the Dark Green used for items in the cockpit or things like the structure that's holding and turning the underbelly ball turret plus some other seperately installed items.

Ingo

[modelldoc]

Saw a B-17 in rhe 8th Air Force Museum in Savannah, Georgia.

 

it's bronze green inside and silver outside.

 

Find out more here:

 

 http://www.mightyeighth.org/b-17-exhibit/

 

modelldoc

[Tbolt]

2 hours ago, tomprobert said:

For the late model G you plan to build, exposed metal in the cockpit was the only area with any paint, and this was Bronze Green or Dark Dull Green. Sidewalls were covered in an olive green padding. 

 

All other areas of the interior, from the nose through to the tail turret were unpainted. It is a very common misconception when it comes to B-17s that they were painted internally, but from the prototype to the last one off the production line, no interiors were painted, especially not US Interior Green as often seen on models. Some small components made by subcontractors may have had some paint (dark dull green) but this was limited to some rear fuselage frames and the like - the skin was natural metal. 

 

Early model B-17s (up until early batch F models) had sound proofing covered in an olive green fabric, but this was usually removed once in combat. 

 

Modern day warbirds are often painted interior green (rather than dark dull green) but this is for anti-corrosion purposes and is not historically accurate. 

 

Hope that helps.

 

Tom

 

Sound proofing? Do you mean thermal insulation rather than sound insulation? I,m sure it helps with sound but i thought its designed to keep some heat in the aircaft. 

I wasn't aware that it was often removed though, thanks for that info.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Tbolt

[tomprobert]

37 minutes ago, modelldoc said:

Saw a B-17 in rhe 8th Air Force Museum in Savannah, Georgia.

 

it's bronze green inside and silver outside.

 

Find out more here:

 

 http://www.mightyeighth.org/b-17-exhibit/

 

modelldoc

 

There was quite a bit of talk about this restoration when it was being done, and the fact that it was painted internally. It transpires that it was painted for long term preservation over historical accuracy. 

 

30 minutes ago, Tbolt said:

 

Sound proofing? Do you mean thermal insulation rather than sound insulation? I,m sure it helps with sound but i thought its designed to keep some heat in the aircaft. 

I wasn't aware that it was often removed though, thanks for that info.

 

Probably served as both sound and thermal insulation. However, with an open radio room roof, open waist guns and being non pressurised, I imagine heat retention wasn't particularly effective. Heated flying suits were certainly the order of the day. 

 

1 hour ago, Ingo Degenhardt said:

Thanks Tom,

this helps indeed. So Airfix got it right as they only have the Dark Green used for items in the cockpit or things like the structure that's holding and turning the underbelly ball turret plus some other seperately installed items.

Ingo

 

My kit is in the attic so I can't be sure, but from what you're saying it sounds as if Airfix have indeed got the interior colours correct. 

[bentwaters81tfw]

You will find that the Monogram kit also says green for the cockpit and certain internal frames. The fuselage interior aft of the radio room was left unpainted. I have a series of photographs of the interior of a B-17 F that corresponds with this.. Same reason that the exterior was left in NMF - it saved weight, materials and man hours.

[Wez]

8 hours ago, Tbolt said:

 

Sound proofing? Do you mean thermal insulation rather than sound insulation? I,m sure it helps with sound but i thought its designed to keep some heat in the aircaft. 

I wasn't aware that it was often removed though, thanks for that info.

 

Those quilted blankets are still used on aircraft today, we call them soundproofing or acoustic blankets.

[Tbolt]

6 hours ago, Wez said:

 

Those quilted blankets are still used on aircraft today, we call them soundproofing or acoustic blankets.

 

I call them insulation blankets, because that's what Boeing call them now days as they are thermal and sound insulating.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Tbolt

[Tbolt]

15 hours ago, tomprobert said:

Probably served as both sound and thermal insulation. However, with an open radio room roof, open waist guns and being non pressurised, I imagine heat retention wasn't particularly effective. Heated flying suits were certainly the order of the day. 

 

 

 

 

OK I take it back - it's called soundproofing. I had a look through the B-17 IPC and they did indeed call it soundproofing. They will obviously do both to some extent though. As for being effective for heat retention, well the cabin was heated by hot air so it would be better than nothing.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Tbolt
Grammer

[Tbolt]

-

Edited December 20, 2016 by Tbolt

[Wez]

Thanks for that clarification.

[Don McIntyre]

I remember seeing a photo somewhere of the waist area where it was generally unpainted but the longerons (or some of them at any rate) were painted either Zinc Chromate Green or Interior Green. I think the former is more likely, but I'm not 100% sure, the memory can be a bit off sometimes...

[Jure Miljevic]

For what it is worth ... Not so long ago I saw a wartime colour photo of Douglas Vega B-17G under construction. I think it was published in one of the old numbers of either Air History, either Air & Space magazine. It showed interior aft of radio cabin and most of it was unpainted, although bulkheads and some smaller parts and components around waist gunners' posts were in Zinc Chromate Yellow. Unfortunately I cannot provide the photo as I could not locate the magazine in question. Cheers

Jure

[bentwaters81tfw]

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2001/09/08/salfuse_zoom.jpg

 

This is an E model.

[JPuente54]

Like Jure, I remember seeing a photo of a B-17's waist area somewhere(and, again, cannot recall when or the publication) with the interior skin unpainted; and, the frames were in Zinc Chromate Yellow. I vaguely remember the caption expressing surprise about the skin being unpainted. So, the answer as to what color for the aft area of a B-17 is: Yes! Absolutely! You could probably use any of the ZC colors, Interior Green, or Bronze Green, or Dull Dark Green, and, be correct. There are not that many color photos that are/can be tied to a particular aircraft to prove one way or the other the exact color. So, this can be one area where you don't have to worry about "The Color Police".

Remember, though, that early built('40-'42 or so) would most likely use ZCY for those parts.

[MalX]

 

Texas Raiders...............my fav !!!!

 

wooden floors, same green in cockpit.

please note:- gun windows are slid open, i've done the same with mine............but my guns stick out too far never mind

[tomprobert]

I've got a scan from the Boeing manufacturing manual somewhere that states only the cockpit area was to have any paint and it was DDG. I'll have a dig to see if I can find it and will post it. 

[mungo1974]

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Radio.WW2/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1770226926556629

[MalX]

this version is bare metal, many also have different Waste gun layouts..............most odd, it seems to be either no glass like Texas Raiders..........or the whole opening is plain glass with that gun support in the middle like above, i can see the Texas Raiders windows stored beside the openings, good grief, so the windows were slid back on runners for combat to improve visability or as above, Fixed in place............. you can see the grab handles to slide the windows out of the way !!

 

 

 

this is interesting

Edited December 23, 2016 by MalX

[Jure Miljevic]

Hi MalX

Late G models had staggered waist gun positions, covered with one piece glass windows. I understand these were sometimes retrofitted to older bombers with non-staggered gunner's posts, too. The photo looks ordinary enough to me apart from machine guns installment cylinders, for lack of better description. I had no idea these were in Bronze Green and I always painted them black. Well, live and learn. Cheers

Jure

[MalX]

in google photos ``B17G Waist guns`` they are indeed black, but i've no idea why those above are in green, some of the photos dont have pivot blocks (Texas Raiders as well), instead the guns are supported by frames attached to the floor.

 

the ones like this have their guns mounted off centre towards the nose of the aircraft mainly facing Aft............... i guess all of this doesn't really matter because only an expert will care.

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by MalX

[Tbolt]

20 hours ago, MalX said:

in google photos ``B17G Waist guns`` they are indeed black, but i've no idea why those above are in green, some of the photos dont have pivot blocks (Texas Raiders as well), instead the guns are supported by frames attached to the floor.

 

the ones like this have their guns mounted off centre towards the nose of the aircraft mainly facing Aft........ i guess all of this doesn't really matter because only an expert will care.

 

 

 

I assume the waist gun turrets appeared with the introduction of the enclosed, fixed window ( block 50-BO and 25-DL) as the pivot point needed to be at the window as if it was still at the previous post position further inboard, the cutout in the window would have to be so large for the gun to maneuver it would be pointless having a window there.

 

Parts were not always painted the same colour. In this period shots below the turret does not appear black.

 

]

 

This ones harder to say what the colour is due to the way the light is falling on it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by Tbolt
Grammer