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Beaufighter identity help - solved


rossm

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Following on from a post I made in another 'white' Beaufighter topic here on BM

 

There are couple of photos of Beaufighters in the 'white' scheme are in the recent book 'Stations of Coastal Command Then and Now' on p191 taken at Chivenor.

One shows a crashed machine captioned as X8084 of 235 Sqdn in October 1942 - can't see the code letters.

The other is a group photo of 235 Squadron where the aircraft is not identified taken in January 1943. There is something that could be a shadow or the letter P on the port side of the nose.

Unlike the aircraft in the original topic the EDSG appears to continue in front of the windscreen but with differing demarcation lines on the two aircraft.

 

The most interesting feature is both have the early flat tailplanes and so are Mark VIC - the first time I remember seeing the VI in this scheme. It's also rare to see photos of operational Beaufighters in this scheme.

 

I assume that only the single aircraft letter would have been carried without squadron codes although as the order to remove the codes was made in October 1942 it is possible the full codes were carried.

 

Please can anyone help with code / serial information to allow me to model one of these 235 Squadron MK VIs?

Edited by rossm
added last few words to clarify request
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Thanks for the replies so far.

 

I think X8084 ties back to a Mk VI and the tailplane is definitely flat in the photo. If all else fails JDR Rawlings "Coastal.....Squadrons" gives the tie up X7925,G so I'll use that on a white scheme, flat tailplane and dare anyone to prove me wrong with the circumstantial evidence of the two photos of other aircraft in the squadron in my favour.

 

As it's not just down the road from Cornwall, if anyone is going to the National Archives and has time to look up the 235 and/or Chivenor ORBs for October 1942 I'd be very grateful, sadly Edgar used to be my contact for that sort of research.

 

Have decided to splash out £6.90 for the digitised version of the 235 ORB for October, fingers crossed for the content to be helpful, much cheaper than the train fare to Kew! The Chivenor ORB has not been digitised though.

Edited by rossm
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Well, that was a waste of £6.90 - no reference to a belly landing in October and the ORB gives aircraft letters without serials so no clues. Do I try November?

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The October ORB records that aircraft "J" crashed from 1200 feet near Penzance on the 8th with no survivors. This is the only record of a crash on land during the month. Does the damage to X8084 correspond to such a crash?  Edit - you've answered my question.

 

All the aircraft are recorded by individual letter and mark, but no serial. All are MK VI.

 

In November, the only recorded loss was on the 12th when aircraft "Z" crashed on landing at Predannack. The pilot was killed.

 

 

Edited by Ivor Ramsden
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3 hours ago, Ivor Ramsden said:

The October ORB records that aircraft "J" crashed from 1200 feet near Penzance on the 8th with no survivors. This is the only record of a crash on land during the month. Does the damage to X8084 correspond to such a crash?  Edit - you've answered my question.

 

All the aircraft are recorded by individual letter and mark, but no serial. All are MK VI.

 

In November, the only recorded loss was on the 12th when aircraft "Z" crashed on landing at Predannack. The pilot was killed.

 

 

 

Thank you, Ivor. The photo shows what appears to be a straightforward belly landing on the runway with no identifying landmarks except an open blister hangar, one of which appears in a photo of a crashed Liberator at Predannack but I think I can also se one in a photo taken at Chivenor. The damage does not look like anything that would have killed the pilot and the cockpit roof hatch is open, presumably for him to escape. Ditto the observers cupola. Are you able to check September and December please?

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2 hours ago, Ivor Ramsden said:

 

In September

..........

"A" skidded into a hedge on landing at Roborough on the 22nd.

 

 

Hi

    Well that took a bit of skill, as roborough wasnt a long field

  At one time it was classed as only suitable for gladiator type a/c 

   

   I must try to find the serial for 'A'

     cheers

        jerry

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Ross

 

Off topic while the sleuths wrestle with your query: would you recommend the book 'Stations of Coastal Command Then and Now'?   I like the sound of rare photos of aircraft but NB my interest in airfields, either then or especially now, hovers around the zero mark.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

Ross

 

Off topic while the sleuths wrestle with your query: would you recommend the book 'Stations of Coastal Command Then and Now'?   I like the sound of rare photos of aircraft but NB my interest in airfields, either then or especially now, hovers around the zero mark.

 

 

 

I bought it because I can't resist books on Coastal Command, especially as I have an interest in modelling 'local' aircraft which is CC or Fighter Command for Devon/Cornwall. It is mostly about the airfields, with the same kind of history notes as can be found in the Action Stations series but I have noticed new titbits in there and a few new photos but plenty of familiar ones although often better print quality than I have seen them in before. There are also aerial photos and photos of buildings 'then and now' which don't particularly appeal to me but I think the title was clear about what I was letting myself in for. So I'm happy with it but from the sound of it I'm not sure it's for you. If you have a local library maybe see if they can get hold of it for you to look through?

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18 hours ago, Ivor Ramsden said:

No accidents are recorded for December.

In September "K" crash landed at Warmwell on the 12th. "Y" belly landed at Talbenny on the 16th and "A" skidded into a hedge on landing at Roborough on the 22nd.

 

Maybe "Y" is the subject of your picture.

 

The other way to approach it is that X8084 was declared Cat B according to the photo caption - if anyone can find a date for that it would help pin things down.

 

Given that Roborough is also local then it would be good to model 'A' but I have seen it quoted as EL338 'O' on another site and I'm not sure if that would have flat tailplanes.

Edited by rossm
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1 hour ago, rossm said:

 

Given that Roborough is also local then it would be good to model 'A' but I have seen it quoted as EL338 'O' on another site and I'm not sure if that would have flat tailplanes.

That's interesting. The ORB mentions aircraft "O" as being used to rescue the crew of "A"  "...at 11.40 aircraft O landed Exeter then proceeded to Harrowbeer to pick up crew of A at Roborough which had skidded into hedge on landing"

 

O continues to appear in the ORB in subsequent days whereas an aircraft coded A doesn't reappear until late in October, which would add weight to it being "A" which had the mishap.

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2 hours ago, Ivor Ramsden said:

That's interesting. The ORB mentions aircraft "O" as being used to rescue the crew of "A"  "...at 11.40 aircraft O landed Exeter then proceeded to Harrowbeer to pick up crew of A at Roborough which had skidded into hedge on landing"

 

O continues to appear in the ORB in subsequent days whereas an aircraft coded A doesn't reappear until late in October, which would add weight to it being "A" which had the mishap.

 

Thank you for this, it seems the other site had its information scrambled somehow.

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Instead of one book and the internet to provide the answers, other sources including 'The Perfect Aerodrome: A history of RAF Chivenor, 1932 - 1995', the Cornwall Police War Diary, 1939 - 1945 and RAF Chivenor's ORB state:

 

22 September 1942: Beaufighter VIc  EL338:A No.235 Squadron (Sgt Payne) skidded into hedge on landing at Roborough (Cat.B)

 

8 October 1942: Beaufighter VIc X8086:J No.235 Squadron (Pt Off ED Neal DFC) Dived into ground & burnt out while searching for T5141 at 16.45hrs nr Trythall (sic) School, New Mill, Madron, Cornwall. killing two crew members.

 

I used to have a photograph of EL338 but will never find it!

 

 

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O/T: not sure of reason for "(sic)" after Trythall, which is about 1/2 mi WSW of New Mill with Trythall Farm at SW448337 and Trythall Vean (Little Trythall) at SW451329. There appears still to be a school a little to the north at Lower Ninnes (SW453344) ie about 0.4 mi WNW of New Mill.

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Instead of one book and the internet to provide the answers, other sources including 'The Perfect Aerodrome: A history of RAF Chivenor, 1932 - 1995', the Cornwall Police War Diary, 1939 - 1945 and RAF Chivenor's ORB state:

 

22 September 1942: Beaufighter VIc  EL338:A No.235 Squadron (Sgt Payne) skidded into hedge on landing at Roborough (Cat.B)

 

8 October 1942: Beaufighter VIc X8086:J No.235 Squadron (Pt Off ED Neal DFC) Dived into ground & burnt out while searching for T5141 at 16.45hrs nr Trythall (sic) School, New Mill, Madron, Cornwall. killing two crew members.

 

I used to have a photograph of EL338 but will never find it!

 

 

...because that was the original entry in the diary

Edited by vampiredave
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38 minutes ago, vampiredave said:

Instead of one book and the internet to provide the answers, other sources including 'The Perfect Aerodrome: A history of RAF Chivenor, 1932 - 1995', the Cornwall Police War Diary, 1939 - 1945 and RAF Chivenor's ORB state:

 

22 September 1942: Beaufighter VIc  EL338:A No.235 Squadron (Sgt Payne) skidded into hedge on landing at Roborough (Cat.B)

 

8 October 1942: Beaufighter VIc X8086:J No.235 Squadron (Pt Off ED Neal DFC) Dived into ground & burnt out while searching for T5141 at 16.45hrs nr Trythall (sic) School, New Mill, Madron, Cornwall. killing two crew members.

 

I used to have a photograph of EL338 but will never find it!

 

 

...because that was the original entry in the diary

 

Thank you for all this information. The final piece of the jigsaw would be a reference to X8084 having a Cat B (repairable off site) accident in the Chivenor ORB but I guess that's pushing my luck.

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Following on from the above I wonder if X8084 had already moved to 236 at the time of the belly landing? They had a detachment at Chivenor around this time.

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I can't guarantee the accuracy of this as I made these particular hand-written notes on No.235 Squadron Beaufighters many years ago, but I have just found this:

 

EL338 taken on unit strength, No.235 Squadron 4 Sept 1942; FA Cat B 22 Sept 1942; removed from unit strength 12 Oct 1942 (No.236 Squadron?)

 

 

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25 minutes ago, vampiredave said:

I can't guarantee the accuracy of this as I made these particular hand-written notes on No.235 Squadron Beaufighters many years ago, but I have just found this:

 

EL338 taken on unit strength, No.235 Squadron 4 Sept 1942; FA Cat B 22 Sept 1942; removed from unit strength 12 Oct 1942 (No.236 Squadron?)

 

 

 

Thank you again for the information. If you did find the photo of EL338 or if anyone knows if it was delivered with the flat tailplanes then I'd feel reasonably confident about modelling it. I've a Hasegawa Beau part finished waiting for an inspirational scheme to kick me into finishing it and a set of Alley Cat flat tailplanes waiting.

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Information from Chris Goss here states the photo is of aircraft Q which was belly landed by Plt Off Chandler on a test flight on 6 Oct 42, hence would not be recorded in the ORB. So I now have serial and code letter. Now the only thing to figure out is whether it carried full squadron codes or just the Q - I think the order to remove the squadron letters didn't come out until 16th October so it should be the full set.

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1 hour ago, rossm said:

Information from Chris Goss here states the photo is of aircraft Q which was belly landed by Plt Off Chandler on a test flight on 6 Oct 42, hence would not be recorded in the ORB. So I now have serial and code letter. Now the only thing to figure out is whether it carried full squadron codes or just the Q - I think the order to remove the squadron letters didn't come out until 16th October so it should be the full set.

 

Fg Off E V Chandler's accident was in T5141:H when he suffered an engine failure and crashed into the sea, 1.5 m north of Boscastle. The Police War Diary states that the accident was on 8 Oct 1942 and the bodies of the two crew members were brought ashore at Sennen, five hours after the accident. If EL338 skidded off the runway and ended up in a hedge then the image couldn't be EL338? Actually I think that I have seen that particular image and it is of T5252:C, flown by Fg Off PC Shaefer. The undercarriage collapsed on take-off on 26 December 1942 and the starboard engine caught fire.

 

 

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