Ta 152H colours: Is there a definitive answer?

[Dave Fleming]

The natural follow on is what did the original RLM 73 look like -  a blue or a green? Not knowing the history of the float, it would be surprising of two separate pieces oxidised/weathered in the same way, especially as the He was under fresh water for so long. It would be interesting to see what a chemical analysis of it's paint samples showed in terms of pigments.

[occa]

Only a few words on Pilawskii:

Everyone (researcher) can make some mistakes,

Using errors to dismiss all of his research is IMO the wrong way, highly polarizing and doesn't help the hobby.

 

If anyone cares here's his report on the colors found on the Norwegian He 115:

http://heinkel115.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Rapport-fra-Kjetil-Aakra-he115_paint.pdf

 

IMO it is a thorough and plausible research.

He doesn't even mean that the colour that now looks blue is RLM83 but a darker one that was used for patches.

Don't judge before you read it

 

Lets agree to disagree, no one knows the full story yet ...much is still just speculation and dependent on interpretations.

 

[Kaldrack]

Oh, I read that report when it was first released. His “scientific” techniques regarding ph levels are laughable and there’s a great many researchers who are involved with paint analysis who would agree. He's what you might call a quack or a snake oil salesman.

 

We can agree to disagree. That's fine by me. I’m more than comfortable with the evidence presented thus far.

[Dave Fleming]

35 minutes ago, Kaldrack said:

Oh, I read that report when it was first released. His “scientific” techniques regarding ph levels are laughable and there’s a great many researchers who are involved with paint analysis who would agree. He's what you might call a quack or a snake oil salesman.

 

We can agree to disagree. That's fine by me. I’m more than comfortable with the evidence presented thus far.

 

Ph level. On a 70 year old solid. Interesting. The bit about using cellulose acetate solubility sounds kind of strange too. Using sand paper to take samples...

[Kaldrack]

1 hour ago, Dave Fleming said:

The natural follow on is what did the original RLM 73 look like -  a blue or a green? Not knowing the history of the float, it would be surprising of two separate pieces oxidised/weathered in the same way, especially as the He was under fresh water for so long. It would be interesting to see what a chemical analysis of it's paint samples showed in terms of pigments.

RLM 73 was a dark green with a slightly blue/turquoise tinge. Unlike the land based colours which were simply a dark green.

 

Regarding the float and He 115. The photos do not offer us the ideal opportunity to tell if they are the exact same colour. They are just similar to the naked eye, but there’s no reason to suggest why they might not oxidise/age in a similar fashion.

[Kaldrack]

2 minutes ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

Ph level. On a 70 year old solid. Interesting. The bit about using cellulose acetate solubility sounds kind of strange too. Using sand paper to take samples...

 It's complete nonsense... He's trying to bamboozle people with his own self-taught scientific practices on paint analysis. Hoping no one will know they are farcicle. 

[Dave Fleming]

23 minutes ago, Kaldrack said:

RLM 73 was a dark green with a slightly blue/turquoise tinge. Unlike the land based colours which were simply a dark green.

 

Regarding the float and He 115. The photos do not offer us the ideal opportunity to tell if they are the exact same colour. They are just similar to the naked eye, but there’s no reason to suggest why they might not oxidise/age in a similar fashion.

 

I was meaning more in the terms of where they were found/stored and what climatic conditions they had been exposed to.

[Dave Fleming]

22 minutes ago, Kaldrack said:

 It's complete nonsense... He's trying to bamboozle people with his own self-taught scientific practices on paint analysis. Hoping no one will know they are farcicle. 

 

I've not done much chemistry since I graduated 30 years ago, but as I was reading that my mind was screaming 'Chromatography'

[Kaldrack]

Indeed, but again no reason why the aging process might not have been similar.

[Antti_K]

Interesting character this Erik Pilawskii. Despite being a paint researcher and specialist he is also an expert on fighter aircraft performance... I think I need to buy a couple of his books.

[fewr9fkr9595]

 

4 hours ago, Kaldrack said:

On the other hand we have a situation which fits together perfectly. Two aircraft painted in the same standard Maritime colours for the period and areas in which they both are presenting an aged and oxidised version of RLM 73 which seems to have altered to approximately the same hue. This theory or more likely fact makes much more sense and it doesn’t require an ounce of shoehorning or wacky, out of the box thinking to come to this simple and obvious conclusion.

 

Occams razor  (I think)

[tempestfan]

I am aware that the document squarely says „Mittelmeer“, but would that automatically exclude a (projected) use in theatres of operation with broadly comparable climatical conditions- which may apply to the Black Sea? Not that I mean it was actually used on that Bv 138, as indeed the space of time between the recommendation in the document and the apparent date of termination of 138 Production. I am somewhat reluctant to say „never“ - as a somewhat stretched example, I have never seen a Plasty boxing of a T1 Airfix Wellington, Lanc or Bristol Freighter, so my stance was the existence of a Plasty Southern Cross was most highly improbable. Until one turned up on eBay. 

 

BTW, the doc refers to 70 as Dunkelgrün, which probably is a typo only.

Edited March 29, 2018 by tempestfan

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

2 hours ago, occa said:

Only a few words on Pilawskii:

Everyone (researcher) can make some mistakes,

Using errors to dismiss all of his research is IMO the wrong way, highly polarizing and doesn't help the hobby.

 

If anyone cares here's his report on the colors found on the Norwegian He 115:

http://heinkel115.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Rapport-fra-Kjetil-Aakra-he115_paint.pdf

 

IMO it is a thorough and plausible research.

He doesn't even mean that the colour that now looks blue is RLM83 but a darker one that was used for patches.

Don't judge before you read it

 

Lets agree to disagree, no one knows the full story yet ...much is still just speculation and dependent on interpretations.

 

 

I have no idea what I just read there. Nor am I clear in what getting a pH measure from sanded paint dissolved in white spirit that has spent 70 years in fresh water proves. Even if the pH were instrumental, all he's proven is that his blue paint is RLMsomething. I fail to see anything to support the leap of logic that leads to it being RLM83. His methods (dubious, IMHO) prove the blue paint is of the same binder chemistry as all the other paints. How that narrows that particular one down to RLM83 is eluding me. If he wanted to know what the pigments were he could have had a better indication from lab analysis to determine what chemical compounds were present in the paint chippings.

 

What I do know is that I had to scrap a couple of thousand pounds worth of product which was manufactured in good faith by White Ensign matched yo the utter mince that was his Russian fiction.

[Antti_K]

I'm reading the Heinkel -report at the moment. Is someone here familiar with the terms "over-contrast photography" and "over-exposed photography" mean? I was trained in aerial reconnaissance photography, photo interpreting and all that in the 90s. I consider that the technical part of the training was quite thorough.

 

The photos in the report simply look to be taken using a consumer DLSR (at best) with an under powered fill-in flash. There is a so called "Hot Spot" at least on one of the photos. Not even the automatics in the camera couldn't save the image. And the same time the edges are under exposed and grainy. I find it unprofessional to use poorly exposed photos for "scientific" research.

[Troy Smith]

5 hours ago, occa said:

If anyone cares here's his report on the colors found on the Norwegian He 115:

http://heinkel115.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Rapport-fra-Kjetil-Aakra-he115_paint.pdf

 

IMO it is a thorough and plausible research.

He doesn't even mean that the colour that now looks blue is RLM83 but a darker one that was used for patches.

Don't judge before you read it

 

this was discussed when it came out

 

 

 

Quote

Heinkel He 115 WrkNr. 2398

Sola - Stavanger, Norway

Analysis of Paint Samples (12.07.2014)

Erik Pilawskii, Report

Samples of paint finish were retrieved from 2398 and subjected to various forms of chemical and visual

analysis. The first examination was to determine the fundamental type of lacquer under investigation. We

expected to find mainly butyrate dope on the fabric areas and alkyd enamel elsewhere. Samples were

tested for solvency in Cellulose Acetate Thinner, which if true would indicate a dope type finish.

The second examination measured the specific Ph value of the paint. The surface camouflage lacquers on

2398 should mostly be expected to be examples of RLM 71xx.- Series alkyd type enamel, and so should

share base chemistry and therefore Ph. The national markings were applied with 716x.- Bekoloid Resin

type enamels which feature a very similar Ph value. Paint located on the airframe which did not conform to

these Ph values could therefore be eliminated as RLM type finishes.

The third examination tested surface reflectivity using the MPI system at 60 °. The reflectivity value is given

in GU units, lower scores indicating matte and higher scores indicating gloss.

Lastly, the pigments in each paint sample were distilled by reduction of the lacquer in white spirit. The

resulting fragments were ground into a powder in a mortar and pestle for examination. Many of the

retrieved samples were so small that no pigment dust could be saved, and cleaning of the equipment

effectively destroyed the test material in most cases. Such small quantities were used deliberately so as

to save the remaining samples for possible future analysis, but in the case this method restricted colour

testing to

visual examination

, only.

Two paints were used as a control: RLM 65 and the red oxide fabric dope. RLM 65 is well known, and was

ubiquitous on 2398. The fabric dope served as a chemical control for the CAT solvency test. No pigments

were extracted from this dope.

RLM 65 (Control No 1)

Specific Ph: 7.6

Surface Finish (MPI 60º): matte(v) - 7GU

Lacquer Base: Alkyd Enamel

Distilled Pigments [digital approximation]

Red Fabric Dope (Control No 2)

Specific Ph: 6.9

Surface Finish (MPI 60º): matte - 3GU

Lacquer Base: Butyrate Dope

Paint

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH

 

Quote

In chemistry, pH (/piːˈeɪtʃ/) (potential of hydrogen) is a numeric scale used to specify the acidity or basicity of an aqueous solution. It is approximately the negative of the base 10 logarithm of the molar concentration, measured in units of moles per liter, of hydrogen ions. More precisely it is the negative of the base 10 logarithm of the activity of the hydrogen ion.^[1] Solutions with a pH less than 7 are acidic and solutions with a pH greater than 7 are basic. Pure water is neutral, at pH 7 (25 °C), being neither an acid nor a base.

the important bit is AQUEOUS solution

 

he's talking about measuring the 'Ph' (sic) of  alkyd (ie oil based) paint....   How has this been made  into an aqueous solution?

 

 

, let alone that 'white spirit'   is not a very scientific solvent .....  I saw 'light  petrol' in  university chem lab,  but not white  spirit

 

it's 'cargo cult science' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science

Quote

Just as cargo cultists create mock airports that fail to produce airplanes, cargo cult scientists conduct flawed research that superficially resembles the scientific method, but which fails to produce scientifically useful results.

 

5 hours ago, Kaldrack said:

His “scientific” techniques regarding ph levels are laughable and there’s a great many researchers who are involved with paint analysis who would agree. He's what you might call a quack or a snake oil salesman.

 

 

yep

 

[Dave Fleming]

21 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

this was discussed when it came out

 

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH

 

the important bit is AQUEOUS solution

 

he's talking about measuring the 'Ph' (sic) of  alkyd (ie oil based) paint....   How has this been made  into an aqueous solution?

 

 

I’d missed the bit about white spirit, I imagined him with undissolved paint in water getting (surprise surprise) a pH of just over 7.

[JPuente54]

This is getting better by the day! We have to keep a few things in mind. I spent 22+ years in the US Army, and learned these things: The military(all nations, all services) is famous/infamous(choose your favorite here) for sending the wrong thing(s). A battalion's mess section orders canned(tinned for my UK friends) meat or vegetables and gets cans of paint or lubricating oil instead; or, a company supply sergeant orders undershirts for the unit and gets a load of dress trousers that are sized to fit Fat Sweetheart(one of the villains from the "Austin Powers" movies). That sort of thing happens in a peace-time military; it is sometimes a bit more common in a war-time one. To go back to tango98's idea of a can or two of RLM 83 Dunkelblau being in Salonika being used to re-paint part of a BV 138 is not impossible. But, it is highly improbable. It was(if it did exist; I am of the mind that it did; but, won't argue it as the facts are still very thin) an experimental color still in the "development and trials" stage. So, not a large amount would have been made. At best anywhere from 2-3 flights to a squadrons worth of Ju 88s and/or Do 217 would have been painted to evaluate its worth. The trials would have been both observed flights to see how well it worked, and, actual anti-ship missions. To return to the BV 138 float being in RLM 83 Dunkelblau; it would have been less the attempt to help the aircraft blend in a theater which it was just passing through; than the effort to just paint over some bare spots: i.e., SGT Schultz orders Private/Airman Schimdt (not sure of the Luftwaffe enlisted ranks here) to spot paint the bare spots on the aircraft(which would include the float). More likely, any paint at that installation(which was described in an earlier post as a "bare bones" base) would have been RLM 72 or RLM 73. Tony Oliver's note of Occam's Razor is a the one which we should consider. The blue color of the float is most likely the result of the paint's aging; and, the blue pigments used lasting longer than the other pigments.

Joe

Mods, wasn't trying to swear here; just using the name from a movie villain. But, I'll leave it alone. I'm sure everyone will understand. I do.

Edited March 30, 2018 by JPuente54
spelling, word

[FAAMAN]

This is some of the text I remember from years ago, it's taken a while to dig this out of the piles in my bulging garage;

These pages are from "Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933 - 1945 Vol.1" buy K.A. Merrick with Jurgen Kiroff 2004, from the "Classic Colours" series by Classic Publications of which I have a few. The pages are out of order as I bought all the text together

and added a small addition to the start.

Of interest is the ex-Luftwaffe KG76 member Joachim Siebers's statement on "blue" Ju 88s,

RLM83-1s by Neil, on Flickr

RLM83-2s by Neil, on Flickr

RLM83-3s by Neil, on Flickr

 

Hope this helps, more searching to do . . . . . . .

Regards all,

FAA

Edited March 31, 2018 by FAAMAN
text error

[Antti_K]

Hello all!

 

A dark blue colour was used on some civil aircraft like bf108s (see Monogram painting guide).

 

Ullmann published one of his theories about the origins of RLM 81 and 82 suggesting that these colours could have been the old RLM 61 and 62 re-introduced with "new" labels. RLM 81 and 82 were chosen for use because no imported pigments were required.

 

My question is: Is there a "bond" between this dark blue paint and RLM 83?

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

[FAAMAN]

I think the fact that the replacement Ju 88s, as stated by Joachim Siebers, were already painted "blue" when they arrived from Munich puts the whole Bv 138 float colour issue to bed.

The float is most probably a faded RLM72 or 73, no more discussion required really.

Also mentioned in "Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933 - 1945 Vol.1" by K.A. Merrick and a few others (searching, searching . . . . . ) is the suspicion that 81 and 82 were renumbered pre-war 61 and 62 (?? not sure of the number), so I think that Anitti K is most probably right about there being a link between the the colours' origins.

Messerschmitt used a dark blue for some civvy birds, what if?

now back to the main issue . . . RLM83, be it green or be it blue? If it's blue, then what is the Dk.Green seen on Luftwaffe aircraft 1945 like the Ta 152? My guess would be one of the two described . . . somewhere (looking, looking . . ) . . . versions of RLM81, one brownish and the other more olive like my previously posted colour schemes? In one ref (somewhere . . ) I have there is actually four colours that could be 81, two "browns", two "greens", not sure of the accuracy of the work but with the difficulties the Luftwaffe were having maybe it's possible there were different 'localised' interpretations of the published "standard" but it also includes the elusive blue/green colour as 99 (??) I think I remember correctly.

Excellent thread gents

Regards

FAA 

 

[Kaldrack]

I was under the impression that the early Bf 108s were painted in BFW house colours. Probably a light’ish blue coloured RAL paint. Slightly later civil/sporting versions received overall RLM 24.

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

9 hours ago, FAAMAN said:

main issue . . . RLM83, be it green or be it blue? If it's blue, then what is the Dk.Green seen on Luftwaffe aircraft 1945 like the Ta 152?

Well said. It is also the original topic of this thread.

 

My trial proposal for the dark greens would be RLM 70 and RLM 71.

Why?

• No new unknown paints into the puzzle, just rearrangement of material (and our thoughts)
• Bomber production was effectively ended by the September 1944*
• Old stock of (also) RLM 70 and 71 were to be used up and they were the bomber colours

I am all open to valid reasons against the proposal.

 

Late war Luftwaffe camo was to protect aircraft on the ground. For the appropriate colours I think:

• For the Autumn 1944-Winter 1945 period grey (75/74), greens (71/70 and perhaps also 74) and brown (81) would serve the purpose as deciduous trees were without leaves (Birch is "grauviolett") and coniferous trees (PInes, Firs) were darkish green as always.
• Towards the Spring 1945 there would be need for the lighter green (lichtgün 82) as trees again got leaves.

 

Your thoughts?

Kari

 

*"Göring ordered his Stab on 29th June 1944 that ... all production of bombers, torpedo bombers etc. as well as all trainign must be cancelled without delay. It is Füherer's will that only fighters be manufactured" JaPo Messerschmitt Bf 109s of KG(J)6 p. 9. There is more of the issue in the book.

[Kaldrack]

The reason for the cancellation and redevelopment of RLM 70/71 was because they tended to desaturate over a short period of time/operational use. This lead to RLM 81/82 being developed as replacements for the 70/71 paints. The above is confirmed by documents discovered by Ullmann. 

[Kaldrack]

For those interested there is an ULTRA decript that mentions a descriptive term for RLM 82:

 

12 January 1945

CX/MSS/R429(A)

To firm HEINKEL, Type Directorate, Herr HART, VIENNA (Roman) I from Erprobungsstelle TRAVEMUENDE, dated 12/1.

1) Paint whole of aileron with colour 82, light green, since by using colour 76, light blue, the camouflage of the dorsal surface of the aircraft is impaired. The use of colour 82 is less harmful on the neutral surface.

[stevehnz]

14 hours ago, Kari Lumppio said:

Hello!

 

Well said. It is also the original topic of this thread.

 

My trial proposal for the dark greens would be RLM 70 and RLM 71.

Why?

• No new unknown paints into the puzzle, just rearrangement of material (and our thoughts)
• Bomber production was effectively ended by the September 1944*
• Old stock of (also) RLM 70 and 71 were to be used up and they were the bomber colours

I am all open to valid reasons against the proposal.

 

Late war Luftwaffe camo was to protect aircraft on the ground. For the appropriate colours I think:

• For the Autumn 1944-Winter 1945 period grey (75/74), greens (71/70 and perhaps also 74) and brown (81) would serve the purpose as deciduous trees were without leaves (Birch is "grauviolett") and coniferous trees (PInes, Firs) were darkish green as always.
• Towards the Spring 1945 there would be need for the lighter green (lichtgün 82) as trees again got leaves.

 

Your thoughts?

Kari

 

*"Göring ordered his Stab on 29th June 1944 that ... all production of bombers, torpedo bombers etc. as well as all trainign must be cancelled without delay. It is Füherer's will that only fighters be manufactured" JaPo Messerschmitt Bf 109s of KG(J)6 p. 9. There is more of the issue in the book.

very much my logic for the development of the late war greens Kari, inaccurate though it may be???

14 hours ago, Kaldrack said:

The reason for the cancellation and redevelopment of RLM 70/71 was because they tended to desaturate over a short period of time/operational use. This lead to RLM 81/82 being developed as replacements for the 70/71 paints. The above is confirmed by documents discovered by Ullmann. 

Yet Ullman hypothesized in the links to TOCH that I put up ages ago that the dark green late war colour was merely 70 or more likely 71 being used up before newer shades were used. Kari's theory of ex bomber paints being used up has an attractive logic to it, will we ever know for sure?  

Steve.

Edited April 1, 2018 by stevehnz