Ta 152H colours: Is there a definitive answer?

[Kaldrack]

Jerry, thank you for your thoughts on this matter.

 

What do you make of this? What is your theory as to why we have an RLM 83 clearly labelled as a dark blue on several period documents, but then possible, although vague leads that "83" could have been a green?

 

"Some of these diagrams that exist calling out color do not refer to the colors as RLM".

 

Realistically, this could just be an omission of the term RLM on the documents for various reasons. The Fieseler Flugzeugbau Kassel Fi 156 camouflage diagram 8-156 dated 23.6.1937 carries no mention of the colours being labelled as "RLM". They are simply referred to as "Farbton A 482" and "Farbton B 616" which is then crossed out and appended with "71" and "70" to read "Farbton 71" and "Farbton 70". Interestingly this later alteration to the document is then further crossed out and "81", "82" is added. Sadly no dates are given for the alterations and even more upsetting is the fact that no descriptive terms are offered for the colours. The only descriptive mention of colour on the document is when referring to the under surfaces: "Farbton 65 blau." Which is then crossed out and appended to read "Farbton blau. 76".

 

Given the reasoning for the phasing out of RLM 70/71 which as Ullmann points out and confirms with period documentation was due to noticeable and undesirable de-saturation of the the 70/71 paints over a short period of operational use/time. Might one then be fair to speculate that given the details and amendments to the Fi 156 document mentioned above that the periodic alterations to the Storch's camouflage colours were to be applied with two new greens, namely "81" and "82". Thus replacing the two earlier and flawed greens of "70" and "71"?

 

I find it interesting that especially on the later war diagrams that there is a distinct lack and possibly planned reasoning as to why descriptive terms were not used to refer to the colours. Might this be because by this point they simply could not guarantee that such an RLM coded colour would be supplied as the exact same hue for any period of time? This would mean that essentially the supplied official diagrams of the splinter patterns/schemes would not have to be altered periodically and resupplied to the factories/depots/units (etc) and could be used indefinitely with only the colours or hues in the specific RLM coded and supplied paints differing if such a pigment was scarce at that time?

 

Perhaps the pigments required to produce masses of 81/82 greens were becoming scarce later on in the war and it was deemed necessary to concentrate the required pigments on just one green and start to produce the other green as a brown? Without changing the actual colour coding as stipulated on the diagrams that had been supplied to the various departments that required them. Just change the colour of the paint in the ordered and supplied pots...

Edited March 20, 2018 by Kaldrack

[Kaldrack]

Double post removed.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Kaldrack

[Jerry Crandall]

Warnecke & Bohme stated to us that The RLM would not label two separate colors with the same number. RLM 81 is identified by Messerschmitt and Warnecke & Bohme as Braunviolett so the question is what RLM color is the dark green that was commonly used. The factory diagram for the Me 262 calls out RLM 81 Braunviolett and RLM 82 Hellgrün.  So back to the original question, the lighter green on the Ta 152 would be RLM 82 Hellgrün. What would the dark green be labeled? Another interesting puzzle is the color photo of Dora 9 W. Nr. 210917 of JG 2 found at Frankfurt that has the upper wing painted with RLM 81 and dark green. What would that color be labeled? Again, the lack of documents has created a lot of theories.

   Cheers, Jerry

[Kaldrack]

Yes, indeed. A really painful enigma... There it is on the Me 262 drawing (26 September 1944):

 

"Farbton 81=braunviolett"

"82=hellgrün"

 

A mention in a 13 September 1944 Blohm and Voss document regarding the camouflage of the BV 155:

 

"81 olivbraun and 82 hellgrün"

 

 

 

 

[Kaldrack]

Can anyone recollect where the link between RLM 83 and RAL 6006 is to be found? I have a note in my files for which I am unsure of it's origins (or accuracy)...

[Antti_K]

1 hour ago, Kaldrack said:

Can anyone recollect where the link between RLM 83 and RAL 6006 is to be found? I have a note in my files for which I am unsure of it's origins (or accuracy)...

Hello Kaldrack,

 

There is a copy of a table in Ullmann's book which gives RAL equivalents for certain RLM colours. Ullmann also published a theory that late war camouflage colours were the same as those used for camouflaging ground equipment and buildings. Of course the paint itself was different but the hues matched. If this is the case then RAL equivalents can be found for RLM 81 and 82 and some armour colours as well.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

[Kaldrack]

Hello Antti,

 

Thank you! That gave my brain a little nudge and I remembered were I had seen it. The list is presented by Michael Ullmann in his Oberflächenshutzverfahren und Anstrichstoffe der deutschen Luftfahtindustrie und Luftwaffe 1935 - 1945, published by Bernard & Graefe Verlag (2000). He gives RLM 83 as equivalent to RAL 6003 with RLM 83 "Variation": as: Herbol Colorservice, Rezepteingabe für 1.0 1 Basislack 3, 82.9 B, 74.5 D, 2,6 K.

 

Although my German is not great and I'm unsure of whether these equivalents were Michael's own estimations or whether they were from some other source. This information also predates his larger Hikoki edition in 2002.

[Antti_K]

Hello Kaldrack,

 

it seems that I have a different book (Luftwaffe camouflage and markings, Hikoki Publishing). There is a copy (or a photo) of a page from a handbook called "Flugzeugmaler" (Aircraft Painter). The table gives RAL equivalents for RLM colours. Some paints never had RAL -equivalents because they were made using pigments that were inported to Germany (for example RLM 74 and 75). Only those colours made using pigments produced in Germany received RAL number.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

[Kaldrack]

Hi Antti,

 

Yes, I own the book you refer to and know the table you mention. I suspect the book I mentioned was Ullmann's earlier work published in German. It has the same table, but purely in the book text itself instaed of the scan of the period document. His earlier German book contains a much larger expanded list of RAL etc equivalents. However, I do not know the source of those equivalents or if they are Ullmann's personal opinion and not an official equivalent.

 

Kind regards,

Kaldrack

Edited March 21, 2018 by Kaldrack

[Antti_K]

Hello again Kaldrack.

 

Now that you mentioned it I recall seeing something similar (an expanded list). But was it in Merrick's and Kiroff's book...

 

It is also interesting to compare the paint chips in "Official Monogram Painting Guide to Luftwaffe Aircraft" with my RAL colour chart. A brilliant example about the differences between Observed Colour and Specification Colour. For example RLM 81.

 

I have an old "Scale Aircraft Modeller" (if I got the name right) magazine which has colour photos of the Do-335 in it's original colours before restoration. RLM 81 looks very reddish-brown and the lighter green very different from RAL 6003.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

[Denford]

May I add another 'late War Luftwaffe' colour, which just about qualifies being here in that it supposedly appears on a Fw109D with a Ta152 tail.

AML accessories offer a resin tail to be added to a Tamiya 190D to produce a machine found at Husted April 1945.  The instruction sheet shows quite a mixture of colours suggesting the a/c was built parts of several machines.

What's really interesting is a colour I've not seen before, RLM 99, described as 'Light Yellow Green' looking like a drab, slightly grey-ish version of RAF Sky.  Interestingly it is shown on the fuselage side/underside (right from the nose) and  the tail (though not tail planes) even though the latter would have presumably been from a separate source.  Suggested preparation 5 parts x Humbrol C117 with 1 x C126 or Agma N27M

Fantasy, perhaps through mis-interpreting presumably b&w photo(s)?

Any suggestions what it might have been?

[Kaldrack]

An interesting article by Michael Ullmann here:

 

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/do335camomu_1.htm

 

I would be interested in seeing photos of the un-restored state of the Do 335 you mention. Does anyone else know the issue number of the mentioned "Scale Aircraft Modeller"?

[FAAMAN]

@ Denford,

I'll quote from my 4+ publication on the Ta 152 from 2008, Camouflage and Markings pg.42,

Quote; "Further, a light greenish-blue colour has also been identified in use in the late war period on aircraft undersides, particularly on some Fw 190D-9 aircraft, and it is feasible that this might have been a further variation of the RLM-76 shade, or possibly a completely different colour for which no RLM number or specification has yet to come to light"

Maybe your colour ?

 

[Kaldrack]

As I understand it  RLM 99 indicated that the actual shade or colour of the paint was unimportant and could vary widely?

[Denford]

2 minutes ago, Kaldrack said:

As I understand it  RLM 99 indicated that the actual shade or colour of the paint was unimportant and could vary widely?

So does this mean that, essentially, any colour or shade could be used?

Presumably the AML diagram was produced from a photo, so could it mean that  the exact colour couldn't be identified?

[Kaldrack]

Presumably it was just a general use paint whereby it's actual hue was irrelevant. Given this I would suspect that it's use on the exterior of aircraft as a main camouflage colour would not be very wise. Neither would it be possible to know what colour was what, especially in photography. I do not know what line of thought the guys who designed the AML diagram were working to or how accurate their knowledge of RLM paints were. If a paint colour could be anything then how could one ascribe such a colour to a particular area of paint on the surface of an aircraft? Why would the painters use such a colour on an FW 190 D or Ta 152 tail sub-assembly? They had other external camouflage colours which they could have utilized, surely?

[Antti_K]

Gentlemen,

 

IIRC number 99 was added to the original (five digits) paintcode to indicate that an exact match with official Farbtonmuster was not required. For example 71071.99 means that a certain paint type (710) was to be used and shade should be 71 (Dunkelgrun). However an exact shade was not required (.99). These codes were used in all Luftwaffe inventory; each and every item had it's own code for work with Hollerith Maschines (an early computer). For example take a look at those small red number decals in Ta-152 H decal set; those intended for use in landing gear bay roof. They are the material codes for aircraft aluminium.

 

In Monogram's painting guide "greenish" light grays are shown. The paint chips are based on Observed Colour and introduced as shades without RLM code. These very same grays are also discussed in Kookaburra's Luftwaffe painting guides but there is an explanation as well. A "perfect" RLM 76 was revealed when the dirty and oxidiced top layer was sanded away. If my memory serves me, Ullmann states that there actually was different light grays under the label of RLM 76...

 

The magazine I mentioned is dated back to mid 1970s. I'm at the office now but will check that when I got home.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

[stevehnz]

12 hours ago, Denford said:

May I add another 'late War Luftwaffe' colour, which just about qualifies being here in that it supposedly appears on a Fw109D with a Ta152 tail.

AML accessories offer a resin tail to be added to a Tamiya 190D to produce a machine found at Husted April 1945.  The instruction sheet shows quite a mixture of colours suggesting the a/c was built parts of several machines.

What's really interesting is a colour I've not seen before, RLM 99, described as 'Light Yellow Green' looking like a drab, slightly grey-ish version of RAF Sky.  Interestingly it is shown on the fuselage side/underside (right from the nose) and  the tail (though not tail planes) even though the latter would have presumably been from a separate source.  Suggested preparation 5 parts x Humbrol C117 with 1 x C126 or Agma N27M

Fantasy, perhaps through mis-interpreting presumably b&w photo(s)?

Any suggestions what it might have been?

This sounds a lot like a colour which one sometimes sees refered to as RLM84 but this naming is almost certainly a myth & afaik, no documentation has ever been sighted to support this.

Steve.

[MilneBay]

Re RLM 99 that's my understanding as well. The colour appears to be a stop gap mix, rather than a specific colour. Sky is often given as a match. I've done a couple of late war 190s with it on some parts.

[Denford]

1 hour ago, MilneBay said:

Re RLM 99 that's my understanding as well. The colour appears to be a stop gap mix, rather than a specific colour. Sky is often given as a match. I've done a couple of late war 190s with it on some parts.

Sky it is then: at least for me.

Since my original post, I've found another reference that I just knew I had somewhere!  EagleCals EC4 for those who are interested and available in 1/72 and 1/48, though without resin part.

If it didn't have the same code (brown 4) and serial number (500647) one could be forgiven for thinking they were different aircraft.  Yet both sources imply verified authenticity.

However it's not just the difficulties of interpreting true colours from black and white photos.  EagleCal has a 'sky' rudder, perhaps repainted with the rest of the f/u.  AML has a blue rudder with brown patches: surely the differences would be discernable in black and white?  Now if it had been cannibalised from another a/c of the 190 series, how many had such a scheme on the rudder?

Interestingly both schemes have significant bare metal on both wing undersides.  Would the paint have been stripped off (surely not) or was they really unpainted (and therefore ex factory component)?  Unlikely.  And why were only some of the panels unpainted: replacing damaged panels would probably be a factory task.  Surely easier to find another wing.

For my part, I'll use Sky as the predominant colour and paint the rest much as I please knowing it would be hard to prove me wrong.

 

[Giorgio N]

39 minutes ago, Denford said:

Sky it is then: at least for me.

Since my original post, I've found another reference that I just knew I had somewhere!  EagleCals EC4 for those who are interested and available in 1/72 and 1/48, though without resin part.

If it didn't have the same code (brown 4) and serial number (500647) one could be forgiven for thinking they were different aircraft.  Yet both sources imply verified authenticity.

However it's not just the difficulties of interpreting true colours from black and white photos.  EagleCal has a 'sky' rudder, perhaps repainted with the rest of the f/u.  AML has a blue rudder with brown patches: surely the differences would be discernable in black and white?  Now if it had been cannibalised from another a/c of the 190 series, how many had such a scheme on the rudder?

Interestingly both schemes have significant bare metal on both wing undersides.  Would the paint have been stripped off (surely not) or was they really unpainted (and therefore ex factory component)?  Unlikely.  And why were only some of the panels unpainted: replacing damaged panels would probably be a factory task.  Surely easier to find another wing.

For my part, I'll use Sky as the predominant colour and paint the rest much as I please knowing it would be hard to prove me wrong.

 

 

I don't claim to be an expert on Luftwaffe colour schemes as others who are posting in this thread (please guys, keep these posts coming, it's very interesting !), but I know that late war fighters had many panels left in natural metal on the undersides. The presence of different colours under thw wings was the result of the different materials: while the metal parts of the undersides were left in natural metal, other parts that were wooden or fabric covered retained the standard 76 (or whatever quality of 76 was available). The areas closer to the leading edges were then painted in dark colours to provide some camouflage when the aircraft was parked on the ground.

The presence of parts with non homogenous colour schemes on these late war aircrafts was also the result of assembling sections built by a number of subcontractors, each of them following the specifications in their own way

Edited March 22, 2018 by Giorgio N

[JPuente54]

This has indeed been one of the most interesting threads that I have read on the forum. A couple of years ago, I commented in this thread about something that I had read in Luftwaffe Colors; about aircraft being painted in spite of the regulations. Graham Boak correctly pointed out that regs would not be disregarded. The point that the authors were trying to make(and, that I was in agreement) is that conditions in Germany in the last 3-4 months of the war made it extremely difficult to always have the specified paint available. The various components(manufacturers to the units) often had to make do with what they had, or could mix. Now it appears that a particular color, RLM 83 Dunkelgrun, did not really exist. One has to wonder then about how this happen. Almost all paint ranges(Testors, Xtracolour, etc.) have offered this as a green. Testors has RLM 82 as a dark green; RLM 83 is Hellgrun. They got that incorrect; but, is easy enough to fix. But, RLM 83 is a dark blue? I am somewhat surprised that Jamie Duff of Sovereign Hobbies hasn't offered any comment on this. He has committed his company to produce accurate colors, and a quality paint. He also does try to use the best and most recent research for his line. This also makes for a minor problem: What is the correct color for the second option of the Airfix Me-262 A-1a? One has the RLM 81/82/76 scheme. The other is RLM 83/76. What do I, and others now use?

Again, a most fascinating, and informative thread to read, and from which to learn. I look forward to more.

Joe

[Kaldrack]

The thing is the RLM 83 being dark blue is still relatively new info. Most of the paint firms would have had a well established range of LW paints (including RLM 83 Green). Plus the jury is still out to a certain extent. Other than some posts on forum's, Michael Ullmann has not yet formally published his findings in print. I am sure he has more details too which he could be holding back. Some of the documents that he released had censored areas which might hold other details.

 

Also there is nothing to gauge what particular blue it was. No paint chips, no reliable relics. It will just have to be a guesstimate until (if ever) something turns up which gives us an idea of exactly what blue RLM 83 is/was.

 

Michael Ullmann did build a Ju 88 model kit to give an example of what the colours may have looked like, but again that was just a guess on the type of blue colour.

 

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/rlm83darkbluemu_1.htm

 

https://www.scalemates.com/profiles/mate.php?id=13463&p=albums&album=14276

[Antti_K]

Hello all!

 

I fully agree with Joe above. A paint will look very different than it's Specification Colour if a few kilos of a certain pigment is missing for example. It is of course very interesting to study these original specifications and compare them with their modern counterparts. These days I am more interested in Observed Colours (which can look very different than Secification Colours). The problem is where to find those samples for study... And are they reliable? I had a chance to see a Brewster Buffalo that had been lying on a lake bed since the war. The camouflage changed notably within few days.

 

Anyway, I promised some photos of a Dornier Do-335 before restoration started. Let's see if my brand new VP account works as advertised (and if I press the right buttons in right order)

 

 

 

These photos appeared in "Scale Models" in July 1975. Original copyright belongs to R.G. Moulton.

 

An interesting detail is the Balkenkreutz: it has been repainted in larger size than it originally was. And this means that a re-sized Balkenkreutz was applied by the Americans! Weird, isn't it?

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

[Antti_K]

14 minutes ago, Kaldrack said:

Also there is nothing to gauge what particular blue it was. No paint chips, no reliable relics. It will just have to be a guesstimate until (if ever) something turns up which gives us an idea of exactly what blue RLM 83 is/was.

 

Kaldrack,

 

Have you seen that photo of a B&V float on display? Whoever published it online states that it is painted Blue (RLM 83)? Was it Ullmann or Brown or...? Unfortunately I don't recall.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti