Handley Page Victor B.1 and 2 differences

[MVW]

Hello,

just a small correction (and forgive me for a slight nitpicking :-)) : according to Roger E. Brooks excellent two volume book about the Victor the fuselage plug inserted after the two prototypes is given as 42 inches. During early tests H.P. discovered severe c.g. problems and the two prototypes got weight plates in the forward fuselage to bring the c.g. within limits.

I want to express a big thank you to all contributing to this thread: lots of new information and detail in a fact based manner. I appreciate this very much and my stash of Victor kits will raise soon. A conversion to one of the prototypes (WB771 in sliver/black/red or WB775 in blue) is high on my list.

 

Regards,

 

Martin

 

 

 

[71chally]

Martin, does his book mention the fin height reduction or any increase in chord dimensions at all?

[MVW]

19 hours ago, 71chally said:

Martin, does his book mention the fin height reduction or any increase in chord dimensions at all?

Hello,

the books from Roger E. Brooks give the overall height for the prototypes WB771 & WB775 as 28 feet, the height of the Mk.1 as 26 feet 9 inches and for the Mk.2 between 28 feet 1.5 inches  and 24 feet 9inches. The Mk.2 figures left me quite puzzled, but AP 101B-1104-1A  Victor K Mk.2  Aircraft Maintenace Manual state the same figures as max./min according to the different loading conditions of the aircraft. I suspect the Mk.1 and Mk. 2 basically had the same fins and tailplanes, however I haven't any evidence. Can anyone with access to Mk.1 manuals bring light into this?

No mention about chord dimensions, sorry.

 

Regards,

 

Martin

[71chally]

Thanks Martin,

The 24' 9' dimension is the minimum height and 28' 1 1/2" the maximum height of both the B.1 and B.2 versions. 

Apart from loading, the difference is dependent on the tailplane & elevator positions, as unusually, it's their tips that are the highest point of the aircraft.  These heights are confirmed from the B.1 AP.

 

There are lots of period references to the production aircraft having a shorter fin, but nowhere can I find a published height (or indeed length and span) given for the prototypes.

You can notice the height difference in good side on shots.

I seem to remember reference to a compensating increase in fin chord on the production aircraft, but still trying to find info on that.

 

James

Edited December 31, 2016 by 71chally

[cashman]

Hi all

 

thanks for the information, Martin. 

 

So, depending on the stabilator position, there may not be any difference between the fin height for the various versions?

 

Close examination of the photos I have seems to show that the fin and rudder are narrower - the B.1 and 2 have a notch at the base of the rudder.  David Howley's drawings (and I accept the usual caveats on drawings) show a narrower fin/rudder chord.

I notice that the bullet at the front of the stabiliser also seems to be a rounder, more symmetric shape than that of the production aircraft?

 

The tail cone is also slightly shorter and evenly conical......

 

Further question - mainly for Martin, as it appears he is looking at the details in the same way I am, but it applies equally well to the B.1 interests:

 

Does the upper line of the intakes remain consistent throughout the 3 variants?  I hope so, because that will make the change easier

 

regards

 

[Rabbit Leader]

Probably not the most appropriate thread to post this, however I'm spotting Victor 'differences' so am placing this here.

 

Xtradecal have plans to issue a new 1/72 HP Victor Decal sheet to follow up the recently released Airfix kit - see link https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/X72271

What strikes me as a little strange are some of the details that we have all discussed (and hopefully confirmed) here, in comparison to some of the diagrams as shown for this proposed sheet. I know that these are only drawings, however IMO the accompanying instruction sheet may lead some modellers to finish their new Victor with some level of inaccuracy.

 

I'd be happy to see photographic confirmation, however these details look a little odd to me?

Option 2. XL158 - Should have Blue Steel missle underbelly, the diagram depicts this a/c with a Bomb Bay.

Option 4. XL513 - Has the addition of the Wittering Wing Lion on the Vertical Fin. I've not seen any images of this marking on this serial.  

Option 5. XL715 - Shown fitted with the 'larger' fin intake fairing rather than the smaller intake as shown in many non BS equipped Victors B.2's

Option 6. XL714 - Camouflaged finish with 'pale' 100 Squadron badge. Once again, I've never seen any images that depict this marking arrangement.

 

Overall, this looks to be another cracking Xtradecals sheet, however I believe that care may need to be taken for a number of depicted serial examples. 

Should photographic confirmation exist to confirm these listed 'issues' - I'll have pleasure in eating my hat and a large dose of humble pie (with cream!) 

 

Cheers... Dave

 

  

    

[cashman]

following another read of James' post, and an examination of the Revell/Matchbox fin (and the Warpaint drawings) seems to indicate a height increase of about 3.5mm above the rudder....

[MVW]

Dear all,

after my previous post and the confirmation from James that the B.1 and B.2 are of same height I found another dimension in the Victor books from Roger R. Brooks I din't notice so far:

The sketch which gives a (static / nominal height of 26 feet 9 inches also gives 9 feet 0 inches from the static ground line to tail cone tip of the fuselage. Assuming that the 28 feet height for the prototypes are calcuated in the same static condition, there is now a good geometric indication of the fin relative to the fuselage.

Rogers Brooks explictely mentions the fin height reduction from the prototypes to the B.1 and the deletion of the fin fillet (to reapear on the B.2), but no word about a change for the chord of the fin. I assume that the fin  just "looks" wider in chord on the B.1 because of the height reduction.

Regarding Cashmans question about a consistent upper line of the intakes on all versions I have / found no conclusive answer. I suspect the prototypes and B.1 as the same and the B.2 as different because of completely changed wing portion containing the engines.

 

Regards,

 

Martin

 

[canberra kid]

Some drawings from the Victor AP's to illustrate the anatomy of the two intakes, I hope they help? 

John

 

[cashman]

HI all

 

The Victor Warpaint says the fin reduction in height from the prototype to the B.1 was 15 inches (38.1 cm)....

 

not sure we'll need to model the full half-ton of ballast that the prototypes needed, but I'm guessing there will be quite a bit used

 

I'm going with your assumption on the fin chord, Martin - if only because it means much less work

 

I gather from my research and various reviews that the Matchbox/Revell kit has the B.1 wing tips, so that I would only need to remove the 18 inches (at scale of course) that were inserted for the B.2 wing to produce the original shorter prototype / B.1 110' wing?

 

regards

 

 

 

[71chally]

Superb stuff again, thanks for the drawings John.

 

Cashman, I have read and re-read that book over and over and never noticed that about the fin height dimension, thank you.

I'm sure I have seen reference to chord being increased, but until i can find something, disregard it.

 

Re the intakes, to my eye the top line to the opening is different, on the B.1 it seems to very subtly curvedown a fraction a third of the way outboard.  Maybe optical illusion?

I've always admired the Victor intakes, they look like artwork in alloy structure form!

[canberra kid]

1 hour ago, 71chally said:

Superb stuff again, thanks for the drawings John.

 

Cashman, I have read and re-read that book over and over and never noticed that about the fin height dimension, thank you.

I'm sure I have seen reference to chord being increased, but until i can find something, disregard it.

 

Re the intakes, to my eye the top line to the opening is different, on the B.1 it seems to very subtly curvedown a fraction a third of the way outboard.  Maybe optical illusion?

I've always admired the Victor intakes, they look like artwork in alloy structure form!

James I was hoping the spar drawings would help clear up the question as to whether the intakes were just modified on the lower lip, I'm inklind to think this is the case with the top line remaining largely the same?

John  

[71chally]

I don't think the spar drawings are a good indicator for the actual intake lip area sadly, really useful for other information though.

The intakes shape could be different for air flow and smaller engine arrangements, for example.

 

I could be wrong, as it seems dependent on how it's interpreted, but the B.1 intakes to me look more wavy in the top line, more noticeable when viewed directly from the side.

The B.2 upper line looks dead straight to me.  I will try and do some dreaded paint.net renderings soon to work it out!

 

 

 

Edit, just taking a very quick glance on Google, it's obvious how different the Mk.1 & 2 intakes are from each other, especially that upper line

Edited January 2, 2017 by 71chally
last sentance

[71chally]

Using the information so far, dimensions are,

 

H.P.80 prototypes

Span 110'  Overall Length 111' 5"  Fuselage Length 99' 5"  Nominal height 25' 6" Max Height 29' 4 1/4"

B.1

Span 110'  Overall Length 114' 11"  Fuselage length 102' 11"  Nominal height 26' 9"  Max Height 28' 1 1/2"  Track 30' 2"

B.2

Span 120'  Overall Length 114' 11"  Fuselage length 102' 5"  Nominal Height 26' 9" Height 28' 1 1/2"  Track 33' 2"

K.2

Span 117',  remaining dimensions same as B.2

 

Note, the H.P.80 dimensions are nominal & worked out by published dimensions referred to in the thread, ie doesn't allow for say the U/G legs maybe being shorter etc

Also, the fusalage length of the B.1 is with the pointed tail cone, the B.2 one with the bluff tailcone, sometimes also fitted to B.1 and K.1s

Edited January 4, 2017 by 71chally

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

I have just dug out 'Scale Models' November 1983 in which Ray Rimell converts the Matchbox Victor K2 to a B2.

How ironic that we now have a B2 and already there is talk of converting it to the tanker!

As a total aside when released at first the Matchbox Victor cost £4.50

Richard

[Rabbit Leader]

Guys, 

There are many published photographs of Victor Mk.2's fitted with intake FOD covers, however I cannot seem to find any evidence that similar covers existed for the Mk. 1 versions. Does anyone know if these intake covers were ever fitted to the earlier smaller intake versions? 

 

Cheers.. Dave 

[71chally]

They're certainly fitted to the K.1 at Duxford, and they were to the B.1 that was at Cosford.

They appear in some service era shots, but are hard to see as they are placed well back.

 

This shot handily shows that upper lip shape I was referring to,

 

From this excellent walk around http://igor113.livejournal.com/647009.html

[Rabbit Leader]

Really appreciate the quick reply, link and photo James.. well done. 

 

Cheers.. Dave

[canberra kid]

Dave, if you want a fully dressed Victor this is everything in the dressing up box.

 

John

Edited January 3, 2017 by canberra kid

[71chally]

John, you always come up with the goods!

[Rabbit Leader]

2 hours ago, canberra kid said:

Dave, if you want a fully dressed Victor this is everything in the dressing up box.

 

John

 

Through early morning squinting eyes... I swore I saw a Victor on skis in the above diagram!! 

Thanks once again John - you must have a statch of drawings piled up somewhere.

Do you have a Victor website to go along with your excellent Canberra one? 

 

Cheers.. Dave. 

[71chally]

On 01/01/2017 at 8:10 PM, canberra kid said:

Some drawings from the Victor AP's to illustrate the anatomy of the two intakes, I hope they help? 

John

Only just noticed this John, but if you look at the intake structure fwd false spar you can see how the B.1 and 2 intakes is differ, note the curve on the upper part of the B1 and the straight line on the B.2.

[cashman]

I agree, James - there is a difference in that upper intake line, so I'm going to get some outside assistance

 

for those of us interested in remodelling/backdating to the prototype/B.1, these are available:

 

Handley Page Victor B1/K1 Detail & Conversion Set

https://www.djparkins.com/home.php?cat=283

 

one already on the way down south

 

when I can sort out how to set it up, I'll start the actual plastic destruction / construction...... A bandsaw has already been used!

 

 

[GordonM]

Quick query, best colour match for the 2" sisal rope and was there an approved Scout lashing for it? ;-)

[canberra kid]

21 hours ago, Rabbit Leader said:

 

Through early morning squinting eyes... I swore I saw a Victor on skis in the above diagram!! 

Thanks once again John - you must have a statch of drawings piled up somewhere.

Do you have a Victor website to go along with your excellent Canberra one? 

 

Cheers.. Dave. 

I like the idea of a Victor of skis, it does look that way, I like the Victor a lot, but I really don't know that much about it to build a site, plus the Canberra site takes up enough of my time without starting another one. 

 

John