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Serial Number Experts (Boulton Paul Defiant) – HELP!!!


BIG X

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With the arrival of the excellent 1/48 Defiant from Airfix this year I am longing to build one flown by a distant relative.  So far I have found some very easy to obtain information, but I am struggling to find the more relevant stuff that would make this build possible.  Here is what I have found out so far…

Date 08/10/40 - Patrol

Type - Defiant I

Serial – N1627

Coded – PS-?

Unit – 264 SQN RAF

Pilot – P/O Harold Ingham Goodall 79159 RAFVR Age 25 (Killed)

Air/Gnr – Robert Bett Mirk Young 40197 RNZAF Age 22 (Killed)

Took off from Luton Airfield, crashed at Marlow Bucks, exact cause unknown.  Reputedly as a result of enemy action.

To enable me to build my little tribute I have three questions…

Does anyone have the ability to find out what the code letter for this aircraft was?

Would the paint scheme have been the traditional dark green / dark earth / sky at this point?

Or would it have been painted black by October?

Any help would be greatly appreciated - thanks in advance :)

Edited by BIG X
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Have a look here to download the F540 ORB Summary of Events from the National Archive, and go here for the F541 ORB Record of Events. The only caveat I would add is that squadron ORB's don't always list serials and individual a/c codes.

 

Regards,

 

Mark.

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Just a thought, but could the '?' have been the individual aircraft code?

Though rare, other units have done this, believe in the absence of a letter being allocated.

 

Probably seen this, some nice 264 sqn Defiant shots here, though of too low a quality for me to make out serials, http://264squadron.co.uk/gallery/1940-1942/

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On the 8th of October the N1627 was on a night patrol though It was in standard day fighter colours.

From the start of september the 264 Sqn. were operating almost entirely by night. The all black night fighter colours was discussed at a meeting on the 30th of October. The actual Signal X.798 was dated 11th November 1940, "advising manufactures and commands of the new finish for night fighters promulgated from this date."

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2 hours ago, Sean_M said:

Looks like a really nice book - I have some credit floating about on amazon - I think this would prove useful for a multitude of projects - thanks for the link

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4 hours ago, Harry Lime said:

Have a look here to download the F540 ORB Summary of Events from the National Archive, and go here for the F541 ORB Record of Events. The only caveat I would add is that squadron ORB's don't always list serials and individual a/c codes.

 

Regards,

 

Mark.

 

These downloads sound very interesting - what is the difference between a F540 & F541 ?

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The difference between the two is one is referred to as a record of events, the other a summary of events.

 

However, 264 Squadron did not list individual aircraft letters, just the serial numbers .  

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8 minutes ago, AndyL said:

The difference between the two is one is referred to as a record of events, the other a summary of events.

 

However, 264 Squadron did not list individual aircraft letters, just the serial numbers .  

 

I see now - I should have read the post properly DOH :doh:- this would explain why the record is a bigger download than the summary

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In the absence of someone with an intimate knowledge of 264 Sq or a relevant photograph coming forward thus far,  an avenue of possible help are the representative log books held by the RAF Museum.  If they hold a contemporaneous one it might just have an entry as crew often recorded code and serial (but not always...).

I'm not well aquainted with Fighter Command records,  there may well be a loss investigation report at The National Archives. 

Have you asked on the RAF Commands Forum?

Edited by Vicarage Vee
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3 hours ago, BIG X said:

Looks like a really nice book - I have some credit floating about on amazon - I think this would prove useful for a multitude of projects - thanks for the link

 

While older, the Ducimus guide 

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/08-Boulton-Paul-Defiant

 

the whole (OOP for  40 years ) series are here as scans

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings

 

still very good overall,  of the RAF titles  Mustang one is the  only one  noted to have errors (mostly omissions I  believe), otherwise these are the ones I refer too first (I have a bound volume) , unlike Lucas work which covers a time period, these cover a specific  type, and that is useful for  seeing  the evolution of the markings,  they also often contain factory camo diagrams, with measurements to specfic airframe pounts and where the markings and  stencils go

 

....eg

Boulton%20Paul%20Defiant%208%20(19)-960.

 

 

The USAAF tend to cover more, and are not the last word.

 

there is a lot more up  at the Boxart den, so  have a scout around.

 

HTH

T

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If you want a list of all the flights undertaken by N1627, I can sort that out for you as I have the entire 264 Squadron Operational Records Book. This Defiant went to 264 in August 1940, and was the 157th production airframe.

 

I also have a list of all Defiant related material held by the RAFM Hendon, so I can cross reference aircrew with any surviving log books for you. I will be making an extended trip there next year as I am currently writing the political, developmental, and operational history of the Defiant for Frontline/ Pen & Sword, so I will be in a position to have a look for you.

 

Andy

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16 hours ago, AndyL said:

The difference between the two is one is referred to as a record of events, the other a summary of events.

 

However, 264 Squadron did not list individual aircraft letters, just the serial numbers .  

 

Hmmm - maybe I could just decal it PS & make it look like the code letter has been painted out or something...

Just thinking out of the box :)

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4 hours ago, AndyL said:

If you want a list of all the flights undertaken by N1627, I can sort that out for you as I have the entire 264 Squadron Operational Records Book. This Defiant went to 264 in August 1940, and was the 157th production airframe.

 

I also have a list of all Defiant related material held by the RAFM Hendon, so I can cross reference aircrew with any surviving log books for you. I will be making an extended trip there next year as I am currently writing the political, developmental, and operational history of the Defiant for Frontline/ Pen & Sword, so I will be in a position to have a look for you.

 

Andy

 

WOW!!!  That sounds like a brilliant book - I do hope you will let everyone on here know when it comes out.  :clap2:

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19 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

While older, the Ducimus guide 

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/08-Boulton-Paul-Defiant

 

the whole (OOP for  40 years ) series are here as scans

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings

 

still very good overall,  of the RAF titles  Mustang one is the  only one  noted to have errors (mostly omissions I  believe), otherwise these are the ones I refer too first (I have a bound volume) , unlike Lucas work which covers a time period, these cover a specific  type, and that is useful for  seeing  the evolution of the markings,  they also often contain factory camo diagrams, with measurements to specfic airframe pounts and where the markings and  stencils go

 

....eg

Boulton%20Paul%20Defiant%208%20(19)-960.

 

 

The USAAF tend to cover more, and are not the last word.

 

there is a lot more up  at the Boxart den, so  have a scout around.

 

HTH

T

 

I have used the Boxart den scans before, when I was looking for camo A / camo B details for Spitfires & Hurricanes - it is a great website.  The fact that the defiant was on there had completely escaped me - some copying / pasting / printing will be required to go in my data files :clap2::)

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  • 1 month later...

I found a really interesting piece about Goodall & Young today...

 

 

...it concerns the Dornier Do-17z recovered from the Goodwin Sands a few years back & under restoration at RAF Cosford.  

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