1/24 5 spoke wheels.

[one of the few]

Hello everybody. I hope that my query can be answered positively. I am building the Airfix 1/24 Hurricane MkI into the markings of N2359 YB-J of 17 Squadron. I have everything that i need for the build EXCEPT the early 5 spoke wheels as used on the L an N series Hurricane. I have searched high and low on the tinternet but i am coming up with nothing. Now i know that someone did a set of 5 spoke weighted wheels for the Spitfire in the same scale because i have a pair on my Spitfire MkI, unfortunately i cannot remember who made them!......Can any of you good people put me in the right direction to obtaining a pair? Many thanks in advance!.

[Troy Smith]

the wheels won't help, as while the hubs are the same, the tyres on the Hurricane are larger.

 

A set of Spitfire hubs in the Hurricane tyres would do  the job,  as the Spitfire is still in catalogue, you could ask Airfix spares dept?  Or,  what happened to  the set you didn't use from your Spitfire Mk.I build?

 

note N2359 has the De  Havilland Hurricane spinner,  which is not the same as the De Havilland Spitfire spinner,  which is what I am guessing you might be  using? 

see http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/

 

 

though it will look OK  as the Airfix nose ring is too big,  the 1/24th Airfix Hurricane has some shape issues as it has a 'to scale' Merlin and gun bays,making the nose too deep and thus nose ring too big, and the wing too  thick.

 

One day  when I feel inspired I'm going to hack up the slightly started one I got really really cheap, as I think the above can be, if not fixed,  greatly improved.

 

Ironically given Trumpeter's penchant for right royally stuffing up classic British types, their 1/24th Hurricane is  bang on shape wise!  pity about the recessed rivets:(

Why they have not downsized it to 1/32,1/48 and 1/72 is beyond me though.

 

HTH

T

[one of the few]

I have the hubs from the original Spitfire build but they do not fit into the Hurricane tyres, the hubs are fractionally too small. Yes i am aware of the prop and Spinner fitted to N2359 . Also the aerial is the earlier pole type. Seeing as the build is purely to go with the Spitfire and not for any shows i am going to be using the spare De Havilland spinner and prop that i have sourced, I know that it is not ideal but it is a case of make do whilst no company have manufactured a correct 1/24 Hurricane specific De Havilland unit. It will also NOT be painted in the erroneous Yellow that has been perpetuated since the 1970`s either!. 17 Squadron painted the spinners in the same colour as the under surfaces of their Hurricanes, As Sky was in short supply during N2359`s time on the squadron, i would hazard a guess that she would have been sprayed in  either No1 Sky Blue or No16 Eau De Nil,from the photo`s i have of the aircraft i would lean more towards Eau De Nil, with no underwing Roundels. I have the airfix kit already in the stash, and cannot really justify 80-90 quid on the Trumpeter kit.....more than my lifes worth!!.....Think Captain Mainwaring and his missus! :-D. Thanks for your response to my query, i will crack on with the build and reassess the wheels at a later date!.

[Troy Smith]

re the wheels,ah, I had 'assumed' they would fit

try adding a strip of thin plastic card wrapped around the edges, that may add enough diameter?   got to be worth a try..

 

 

I agree about 17 sq sky spinners,  possibly because the order was to  paint the underside, and depending on your interpretation, the spinner is 'underside'

 

The business about Sky and 'sky' equivalents,  I think much of this " No1 Sky Blue or No16 Eau De Nil "  is the result of Paul Lucas work, from examining wrecks,  he  said the colours 'look like'....this  has been discussed at length, hmm.... quick google...

 

 

 

On 27/07/2015 at 22:12, Beard said:

'Possibly' is good enough for me. Occam's Razor comes in to play here.

Now all I have to do is get my hands on some Colourcoats in the model shop desert in which I live. Alternatively, I'll be taking my copy of British Aviation Colours to my local Humbrol stockist on my day off.

Hi Simon

It's a complex subject, with many variables.

One point, what are the serials?

this is sheet in question

http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/X48145

41 Sq plane.

No serial known. Tony O Toole helped with some of these sheets and he may be able to shed more light on this.

EDIT - listed on Asisbis as N3126

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/MkI-RAF-41Sqn-EB-L-Shipman.html

pic

Looking at the Xtradecal instructions there is note of the panel under the nose.

If this is the reference photo I'd suggest this is more likely still with the Black/White undersurface scheme still, note the very light colour of gear leg and side of radiator.

Also of note is the visible repainting of the fuselage roundel back to 35 inch, note plane in background has an oversize roundel from the addition of an equal width ring to the existing roundel.

Regarding Lucas, here's the relevant bit from "Britain Alone" and is what the various other paint matches are based upon.

But, this thread covers a lot of the main points raised over the use other paints instead or Sky, or local mixes.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234966713-spitfire-mk1-with-extra-dark-sea-grey-belly/

But here's the edited version. Much of this is about Eau De Nil, another colour identified above.

On 03/09/2014 at 03:29, Troy Smith said:

I don't have the Lucas book to hand, but IIRC the main evidence was from wreck parts, matched to colour chips, by eye, unfortunately no photos of this are shown. I con't remember what the colours were matched to, possibly FS595?

Also, we are dealing with parts from mostly buried wrecks, and soil chemistry and just ageing of the paint can change apparent colour, for example paint binders can yellow with age, causing the colour to shift and darken in appearance.

In the case of Sky paint, that would cause a darkening and greening of the apparent colour.

It is possible to analyse the paint to find out the pigments and binders etc, but a visual comparison with paint chips is of limited use.

The above is trying to put simply what Nick Millman has written about, at length, here and on his blogs, and any errors in the above are mine, not his!

I mention Nick as he is a very through and careful researcher on the subject of paint and colour

Varitions in the Sky have been noted since the time of introuduction, This is discussed in the Ducimus Camouflage and Markings series, in particular in the Spitfire volume, which was written in about 1970, but makes many valuable points as reasons for variations.

What has happened since the Lucas book is that profiles in the book have had a variety of underside colours given to them , Eau De Nil, Sky Grey, Sky Blue, and this has lodged in modeller and decal manufacturers brains as a 'fact'.

That said the use of Sky Blue instead of Sky seems to be more widespread than was thought when the Ducimus was published. There have been thread on this here.

Without professional analysis of the wreck parts, and that would only tell you what those specific aircraft were painted in, you are into the realm of a 'best guess'

The 'best guess' can be improved upon by finding out when the plane entered service and from photos of non-standard underside demarcations, eg as seen on some 85 sq and 17 Sq Hurricanes in June 1940, implying an infield repaint, for an example of elimination of unlikely airframes, see the quoted Spitfires above.

From a modeller's point, it's only really aircraft that are in this 'window' that are candidates for having non-standard underside colours. They certainly make for more visually appealing models.

I'm not claiming any special knowledge of the subject, more adding a basic summary for the less obsessed who may be intrigued by the thread title, and confused by some of the comments.

On 03/09/2014 at 15:52, Graham Boak said:

There was one interesting (at least to me) point within Paul Lucas's book. The three undersides identified from wreck sites as being Eau de Nil came from the units that were at Linton-on-Ouse and one other Humberside base (Kirton-in-Lindsay?) when the order came through. To me, this suggests a very local use of whatever colour it was, whereas Paul seems to have extrapolated this to a wider range of units coming from different parts of the UK. In this he could be said to have been supported by MJF Bowyer, based on personal observation at the time by his acquaintances and himself, that Sky as in use in 1940 was distinctly greener than that seen later in the war.

I entirely agree that Eau-de-Nil was in fairly wide use prewar, within the RAF and indeed domestically. But the paint applied to aircraft will have come from the limited range of colours available to the correct DTD specification, and those did not (to my knowledge) include Eau-de-Nil. I have wondered if it was the identity of the lighter green sometimes spoken of as in use for some aircraft interiors.

In his excellent book, Paul does pretty thoroughly discuss the problems of supplying Sky at this time, and the potential solutions/problems. Nick Millman has also contributed to the subject, elsewhere on this site.

On 03/09/2014 at 16:06, John said:

The issue of No16 EdN and No1 Sky Blue to the correct DTD standard for application to both fabric and metal exterior surfaces is a point I have raised many times. If EdN *did* exist in this form it was most likely a civillian order for the colour.

I don't have my copy of Lucas immediately to hand but I do recall that there are photos (inside one of the covers?) of researchers holding a FS595 fandeck against their chosen specimen parts, rather than a copy of the chips from BS381(1930).

I’m also fairly certain that PL didn’t say that these colours *were* EdN and 1 Sky Blue, just that they looked like them. The certainty has been applied retrospectively by others.

Sky is essentially white with a couple of strong pigments added to get the required final colour. Varying the proportions of these pigments even slightly can have a distinct effect on the final observed colour. I've long been of the opinion that this is a more likely source of the variations observed in 1941 (and indeed later) than the use of non-standard colours.

For the record I doubt the widespread use of Air Ministry Sky Blue for the same reason.

John

On 04/09/2014 at 16:22, Nick Millman said:

I agree and FWIW (I've mentioned it before) I've recreated colours close to both BSi standard colours using similar pigments to the white, yellow and blue paints that would have been held in stores. The use of yellow instead of yellow ochre makes a significant difference to the resultant hue and recreates the stronger blue-green appearance.

The "old" cheap recipe for Eau de Nil, in use as late as 1929, was Zinc Oxide (white) and Pale Chrome Green. The zinc oxide has a rather poor tinting strength and a tendency towards yellow or creamish. The chrome green is interesting because it is made from chrome yellow and Prussian blue pigments. The chrome yellow decomposes the blue pigment over time making the appearance browner, exacerbated by yellowing of the binder. On the Lucas examples genuine Eau de Nil would have shifted towards more yellowish. But they looked to me like typical "sky blue" paints where age darkening and yellowing of the binder had made them look more turquoise or greenish than they probably were originally.

 

I thought this the case when I looked at the chip in the 1930 standard for BS 381 # 1 Sky Blue but very usefully the original book includes a sample of the clear celluloid used for the swatches so the extent of browning can be gauged reasonably accurately. The original colour was undoubtedly more turquoise (greenish) than the colour one usually associates with sky blue but the complication is that clearer sky blues and blue-greys shift towards a similar appearance with the yellowing of their binders. This is why the French Gris Bleu Clair is now thought by some to have had a more blue-green appearance than it really did, because they are assessing it from extant but aged paint surfaces. The shifts can occur without the surface appearing in any way degraded, even retaining its gloss, which can be misleading because the assumption is that the paint is "as good as new".

 

Nick

 

The Lucas book does list where the parts are, which is several small museums in Sussex and Kent, which are listed but no photos, and no history of the where the parts are from.

I'd go round these places if I had a car, I'm not dedicated to try to get to them by public transport, but as the research was done maybe 15 years ago the paint may shifted more anyway.

If you could get actual samples you could analyse them, and that would yield more information, but would you even be able to get samples?

I would suggest that aircraft built after the introduction of Sky in June 1940 are probably going to have the specified paint as factories would get the right paint as a priority?

and in the case of Spitfires this can be pinned down if you have a serial.

see http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/production.html

From this I'd suggest all the Castle Bromwich and the Supermarine somewhere on this page

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p010.html are likely to have factory applied Sky.

Unfortunately there is not similar page of Hurricane production.

 

 

 

I hope this is of interest.

 

Finally, the Trumpy Hurricane can be got  for  a considerably less than 80 or 90 if  you look....  I got a started IIc from here for £20 and post,  which was worth it for 'research' purposes...

It's not without faults, though folks have been happily building the big Airfix Hurricane for decades with few complaints,  it certainly looks  the  part.

 

HTH

T

 

[Coors54]

When this thread first appeared I thought whoopee, someone else has the same problem as me. I'm making N2319, 'Sammy' Allard's Battle of France machine, so Troy's suggestion of the Spit wheels had me contacting Airfix straight away to buy a couple of wheels. They were in the post on Tuesday night and on Wednesday one of the few replies to say they are too small - b****er!

Airfix were great, the parts arrived on Thursday and as my modelling is done away from home I won't have chance to compare and see if there is any possibility of a work round for a couple of days but I will report back if I do manage something.

In the meantime ootf, how did you modify the windscreen to the earlier type?

Edited December 14, 2016 by Coors54
Name change

[Coors54]

So I have had a quick look at the kit wheels and the Hurricane wheels are bigger but the Spit wheels look like a drop fit inside the rim, so I reckon that cutting the back location circle off the Spit wheel and reeming out the four spoke details on the Hurricane wheels will let the five spoke face sit in the larger four spoke wheel. 

This will still have the larger rim and the five spoke detail will have a slightly thicker outer rim but should be an acceptable compromise. Pictures when I do it.

Failing this buy a desk top 3D printer?

 

Dave

[Troy Smith]

thanks Dave

 

I  did find a set  of 5 spoke Spitfire hubs in box, and wondered exactly the same thing,  but failed to dig out the 1/24th Hurri and compare.

 

this may help as well

 

wheel of the unrestored Finnish Hurricane

from

http://www.pienoismallit.net/galleria/referenssi_1536/

 

http://www.pienoismallit.net/galleria/referenssi_1295/ 

 

cheers

T

[Coors54]

OK, quick and dirty go at making the wheels, here is the problem -

 

 

Five minutes with a coarse sanding stick on the Spit wheel, reduce the depth of this by just over a half then bevel the back edge, remove the bolt detail on the Hurri wheel and you get -

 

 

 

I filled the edges on the rim, a quick sand and a coat of silver gives us - Ta Da -

 

 

So I just need to refine things a bit, add the hub bolt detail and I could make the bumps on the outer edge of each cut out a bit bigger but I think we are nearly there.

Airfix charged me £3 to send two Spitfire wheels by first class post which I think was darn good service and a lot cheaper than resin ones although I still have to use the vinyl tyres  but I have a cunning plan for them too.

 

Dave

[one of the few]

I am liking what you have done with the wheel hubs Coors 54. I may have to follow up with my request to airfix for the hubs. I have been busy with the rest of the build which is coming along nicely.