Short C-23 Sherpa - what colour is this?

[bootneck]

I am currently building a Short SC-23 Sherpa and would like to finish it in the grey colour of the U.S. Army.  I only use Vallejo Acrylics and would like to know what FS colour and their Vallejo equivalents are please.

Mike

[72modeler]

Bootneck,

 

Couldn't find any definitive color guide or T.O. for the Sherpa, but thinking maybe FS36473 light grey might be what was used, since it was commonly applied to USAF transports and helicopters. If I can find any accurate info, I'll repost. Somebody out there must know. Sorry!

 

Mike

[iainpeden]

It was the dark grey used on the lizard scheme worn by A-10s and Phantoms - I think it was 36081 Dark grey but could be 36118 Gunship Grey.

[Giorgio N]

US Army fixed wing aircrafts are painted in grey FS 36300, the C-23s are likely in this same colour. Can't help with a Vallejo reference though, sorry.

[Giorgio N]

Small bit of trivia: the color schemes of US Army aircrafts are not in T.O.s but in the Army TMs... There are a few copies of 1980's TMs including colour information and schemes on the web, on a mobile now but will post links when I'm at a pc

[bootneck]

If it is any use, the date for this scheme in the photo's is c2004-2010.

 

Mike

[e8n2]

12 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

US Army fixed wing aircrafts are painted in grey FS 36300, the C-23s are likely in this same color. Can't help with a Vallejo reference though, sorry.

From the picture, it looks too dark to be 36300.  I would lean more towards 36173, also known as AMC gray.  When Air Mobility Command went to a single color paint scheme, it was more along the lines of 26173 with large, cartoonish national insignia.  Later on they changed it to 36173.  Since the Army originally got their aircraft from the Air Force, and they were also flying the same basic mission (carrying cargo) it would make sense that they would have used the same paint scheme.

Later,

Dave

Edited December 4, 2016 by e8n2

[Giorgio N]

1 hour ago, e8n2 said:

From the picture, it looks too dark to be 36300.  I would lean more towards 36173, also known as AMC gray.  When Air Mobility Command went to a single color paint scheme, it was more along the lines of 26173 with large, cartoonish national insignia.  Later on they changed it to 36173.  Since the Army originally got their aircraft from the Air Force, and they were also flying the same basic mission (carrying cargo) it would make sense that they would have used the same paint scheme.

Later,

Dave

 

USAF C-23s carried the Europe 1 scheme (can't remember if the dark or light variant), and the Army acquired a number of these in 1990 but mainly used them for tests. Most Army aircrafts were purchased directly from Shorts so they had no previous service in the Air Force.

The USAF retired the Sherpa before the introduction of the AMC grey scheme so if the Army aircrafts were in this color, it would have been to an Army specification

[bootneck]

And the Air Force modellers thought they had problems with identifying colours!    Seems I've opened up a can of worms on this one, with so many colour variations being offered.    I think I can understand this though, as the colour appears to look different under various weather conditions and light.

I may have to consider painting mine in a non-military colour scheme, such as the red/white of a forestry fire service version, but I'd still prefer a grey one if the colour can be identified.

One, or more, went over to NASA but I think only the badge was added and a change to civilian registration

 

Mike

[perdu]

When i scratch built mine I was obsessive about getting the colours right

Shorts did not use the proper Europe one colour for the sharper green and in service the USAF were seen to have touched up damaged areas with the proper green

This gave me several areas to touch in making the three colour scheme a four colour one

But the new build C23Bs were delivered in the overall lighter gray used on other fixed wing machines

I suspect that would be  FS36300 as stated above

 

[Giorgio N]

I don't think it really is a can of worms, the main problem is that while info on USAF and USN aircrafts is commonly known, the fixed wing US Army aircrafts are not covered much because they are not as much in the spotlight as the combat types. All US services issue very and detailed specifications when it comes to painting, it's just a matter of finding the right document.

The document specifying the finish of US Army aviation types is TM-1500-345-23. The latest issue is dated July 2015. I've managed to find a copy of this and it's stated in the cover that this document supercedes the version of the same document issued in June 1986, version that I've also found, although not in the original version... the one I have includes a number of changes, the latest of which is dated 1998.

 

Starting with the 1986 version, the colour for fixed wing aircrafts in the tactical scheme is given as aircraft gray. In the materials list there are two aircraft gray listed, one is FS 36231 for interiors and the other is FS 36300 for exterior. However one page at the beginning of the chapter dedicated to fixed wing aircrafts mentions 36231 for the exterior... wonder if it's an error or there's been a mismatch of changes in my version of the document. The page mentioning the general schemes is the subject of a 1996 change.

 

The 2015 version unfortunately does not mention the colour scheme, or if it does I've not found it (mind, we're talking documents with many hundred pages and I've not read them all extensively). In the materials list now there's no mention of the previous FS 36300, however there's mention of 36320.. in the same document however, in the chapter mentioning inspection procedures, there's a list of colours with maximum fading values allowed. Aircraft grey is here indicated as FS 36300, and it's stated in the table that the colour is to be considered out of specs when it fades to 36473 or lighter.

While the 2015 document does not list 36300, I have also seen a different document (TB-43-0242, dealing with spot painting procedures) dated 2007 that still mentions 36300 as aircraft grey for exteriors.

 

Now none of the documents I've seen shows pictures of the C-23, however my view is that at least from 1996 to 2007, the colour of all overall grey US Army aircrafts was FS 36300. Considering that this same colour appeared earlier on a number of types (mid-late '80s), I'd also expect this colour to have been in the relevant TM from the start in 1986.

Interiors are much easier, as all documents clearly states the use of FS 36231 for cargo compartments of US Army aircrafts.

 

I'll try and see if I can find anyone who has this book, this may confirm or not my view

 

http://www.schifferbooks.com/u-s-army-aviation-color-schemes-and-markings-1942-to-the-present-1136.html

[Rob G]

I can't comment on the colours, but I will (as usual) comment on the inadvisability of using photos to match colours from. Not a recommended approach. Giorgio's way is the right way - from written standards, then match your choice of paint directly to a known good colour chip. Don't rely on what the paint maker states, because they're quite often wrong/misleading.

 

Unless you're like me, and think that close enough is good enough for models, in which case grab your 'nearest closest' match, and spray away. (I'm only really fussy about colours when I print my own photographs. Rest of the time, internet included, I don't get too carried away.)

[bootneck]

Thanks Giorgio and Rob,

 

very extensive and helpful details.  I'm not so concerned about the internals as I have seen these photos which all show the C-23 to have a cream interior . 

 

I have looked through my collection of Vallejo paints and I do have 36230 and 36231 but not 36300.  As the aircraft colours do look different in the various light conditions I think the model will look OK in 36321; however, as my model is only 1:144 scale, I shall lighten it slightly.

 

Thank you again for effort that has put in to try and help me with this; I do appreciate it.

 

Mike

[perdu]

Mike I agree with Giorgios summing up

That document he has read out is in my file that I can't put in the box for you.

 

PM me with a postal addy and I'll pop it in the post to you on a CD

 

B

[andyf117]

Content withdrawn - I will NOT be threatened by a moderator, simply because I queried the actions of another...

Edited June 27, 2020 by andyf117

[bootneck]

Hi Andy,

 

that document is very detailed and should be very useful, not just for my Sherpa build.   Are there any similar documents out there for the USAF and/or USN?  Those would be a great resource for making codes and markings for fixed wing and helicopters.  Thank you for posting the link.

 

Mike

[Giorgio N]

Similar documents for the USAF can easily be found on the web, just search for T.O. 1-1-4

 

The link below is one example

 

http://www.oldwings.nl/content/o0/USAF_TechOrder_TO_1-1-4.pdf

 

This is a 1998 document, I'm sure that more recent documents can be found with a bit of searching. At the same time, depending on the aircraft you're interested in, it may be worth searching older documents.

 

For the US Navy, the document to look for is MIL-STD-2161 in its various revisions. The link below is for Revision C, dated 2014, that I believe is the latest revision (even includes the F-35)

 

https://www.megabotix.com/wp-content/uploads/MIL-STD-2161C.pdf

 

All these documents are very large with several hundred pages. Sometimes finding the bit of info we need takes some time but they really list everything, from the main colour scheme to the smaller stencils and their locations

Edited December 13, 2016 by Giorgio N

[andyf117]

Content withdrawn - I will NOT be threatened by a moderator, simply because I queried the actions of another...

Edited June 27, 2020 by andyf117

[e8n2]

19 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

Similar documents for the USAF can easily be found on the web, just search for T.O. 1-1-4

 

The link below is one example

 

http://www.oldwings.nl/content/o0/USAF_TechOrder_TO_1-1-4.pdf

 

This is a 1998 document, I'm sure that more recent documents can be found with a bit of searching.

The last version of 1-1-4 that I have is Change 7 to the 1994 basic T.O.  While there may have been another change or two after that, by the turn to the current century, 1-1-4 had been deleted.  I know because I've looked for it myself and the copy that I have is the latest one that I could find.  If you want paint information for specific USAF aircraft, you have to find the T.O. for that particular aircraft that has that painting information.  For the F-15 for example, you could try to get a copy of T.O. 1F-15A-23, but from a quick check, you would have to purchase it sight unseen to find out if it is the right T.O.  The -23 series of aircraft T.O.s do cover corrosion control, but the -23 for either the C-5 or C-141 (its been decades since I've seen it) had a drawing showing how it would look with all the exterior panels laid out flat but not the camo scheme as I recall.

Later,

Dave

Edited December 14, 2016 by e8n2

[Giorgio N]

Thanks Dave,

it's a pity, the old TO 1-1-4 was a brilliant resource for modellers. Having to search for separate documents for each type will make things more complicated.

What's interesting is that a number of recent USAF documents still mention TO 1-1-4, but it wouldn't be the first time I've seen references in official documentation to other documents that are no longer current...

[e8n2]

What was amazing to me was the aircraft NOT covered by 1-1-4.  As from a different thread, the SR-71 was not in it (if it had that would have answered that one question real quick ;-), and the scheme for the F-16 was never in it, just the size of the serial number block on the tail.

Later,

Dave