HMS Hermes Falkands-era SHAR undersides - brush marks?

[LaurieS]

7 hours ago, Jon Kunac-Tabinor said:

Although I imagine it was minimal in reality, I wonder if the extra paint applied via this method had any impact on performance in terms of weight or drag ( assuming mop applied EDSG is thicker than, and isn't quite a smooth as, sprayed EDSG that is!!)

 

Cheers

 

Jonners

 

 

Thinking the same Jonners. It made a difference to the Spitfire as the rivets were all flush with the general fuselage.

 

But the flush riveting process proved expensive. They did test and found that some areas with raised traditional rivets would not harm the performance

proving that the flush rivets made a difference. As the Harrier went faster any unsmoothness i would have thought would make a difference.

 

F1 cars are really smooth and polished so presumably it does make a difference. How much is the point.

[phildagreek]

A long time ago, well 1985, I worked with an RO1(T) who had been on Hermes during the war, one of his two main moans was getting roped into painting aircraft, "with a (expletive) brush". His other moan was getting shifted to work on the signal deck instead of as a bridge watchkeeper (in the warm & dry) while the senior hands all moved indoors. Headed home this situation was (of course) reversed as she moved into warmer climes.

[junglierating]

I wonder if they meant the forward hangar.

I once with minimal training sprayed the back end of a FRS1 on ARK.Basically closed the fire curtain and got the bridge to make a pipe.

Wouldnt say it was a brillant job coz first launch half the paint peeled off!

That said there was only one harrier and one gazelle in the fwd hangar....cant imagine that was the case down south

[Flankerman]

I suspect that the weight of the pilot made more difference to performance than a layer of paint - no matter how badly applied.

 

Surely a big 6-foot pilot (with facial hair!) would weigh a few tens of kilos more than a small Winkle Brown type ???

 

I've always pondered the same for F1 racing - where the commentators mention that weight is critical - yet a big bloke like Mark Webber gets to drive alongside smaller guys - think Alain Prost.

 

I just found this on Wiki..... http://formula1.about.com/od/drivers/a/Driver_Weights.htm

 

It makes interesting reading

 

Ken

[Dave Fleming]

From memory, there is a photo of a Hermes SHAR being repainted by brush in the 'Falklands: The Air War'.

 

I also recall there being evidence that Invincible's ESDG aircraft were given a repaint on the journey home, as weathering apparent 'in theatre' was not visible on return

[LaurieS]

Little bit more information.

 

Asked the Fleet air Arm Museum if they had an information on the subject of the spray Unit in Invincible.

 

This is the very nice reply I have had. Great museum service. They have passed info. on before to me.

I think that is very nice of them.

 

So here it is. does not tell us all but it is the bones of it and interesting .

 

Laurei

 

Dear Mr Stewart

 

I have been asked to look into your request for information on spray painting 801 NAS aircraft en-route to the Falklands.

 

From the Falklands the Air War

 

During the passage south to Ascencion Island the aircraft were spray-painted in their wartime colour scheme. In that repect 801 Sqn maintainers had a distinct advantage over their counterparts in 800 Sqn. Unlike HERMES, INVINCIBLE (being a more modern carrier) had an excellent air-conditioning system which allowed spray painting to be carried out in the hangar. 801 Sqn Sea Harriers thus emerged from re-spray in pristine condition, while 800 Sqn machines had what was described as a "textured and more durable hand-painted finish!" Extra Dark Sea Grey was applied to the underside (covering the serials) and other white areas while all ROYAL NAVY tiles, deck letters and Squadron markings were oversprayed in the same colour. Black ventral fin serials were retained, the white segments of the roundels being over painted Roundel Blue.

 

As far as I know there was no spray painting bay and it is likely some sort of canvas screen could have been used.

 

I hope this helps

 

Malcolm Tennant

Lt Cdr RN (Rtd)

FAAM Curatorial Volunteer

[moaning dolphin]

Seek and thou shalt find! There is always good knowledge out there its just knowing where to look! BZ

 

Bob

[junglierating]

Fwd hangar then

Edited December 2, 2016 by junglierating

[LaurieS]

42 minutes ago, junglierating said:

Fwd hangar then

 

one gazelle in the fwd hangar.

 

Did not realize that the Navy carried animals. 

 

Laurie

 

You did a bit of maximum editing there Jungle.

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

1 minute ago, LaurieS said:

 

one gazelle in the fwd hangar.

 

Did not realize that the Navy carried animals. 

 

Laurie

 

You did a bit of maximum editing there Jungle.

Did not realize that the Navy carried animals.

 

Aren't they usually called Marines?

 

 

Jonners, with the utmost respect for the Green Machine

[bootneck]

[LaurieS]

1 hour ago, Jon Kunac-Tabinor said:

Did not realize that the Navy carried animals.

 

Aren't they usually called Marines?

 

 

Jonners, with the utmost respect for the Green Machine

 

I fear for your health

 

 

 

Laurie standing well out of the firing line.

Edited December 2, 2016 by LaurieS

[NG899]

Hi everyone,

 

Late to the party on this but a few points to help you out Jon...

 

On the EDSG - On both Hermes (brush painted) and Invincible (spray painted, as they had extractors in the hangars) there is a difference in tone between the original upper surface EDSG and the lower surface EDSG, caused by it being applied directly over white, meaning that it looks a bit lighter.  Sometimes that comes through in b+w as well as colour photos.  I'm lucky enough to have copies of some of Dick Ward's photos of Invinc's SHARs when they returned to the UK.  The one aircraft that looks more evenly coloured is XZ455/000 which had cross-decked from Hermes when that carrier sailed for home and appears to have received quite a respray; yet to be confirmed.  I'm also lucky to have some of Robin Walker's colour photos of the aircraft of both air ships' air groups when they arrived back in Portsmouth, which show this.

 

On the white over-painted blue roundel portions - Again, as the blue was applied over white, the SHARs of both ships' air groups had a lighter shade of blue visible in this area which does show up better in b+w than some colour images.  This was something the late David Howley and I tried to achieve and I think successfully did achieve in the Xtradecals Falklands SHARs set.  Sadly, Kinetic didn't quite pick this up in their decal sheet.  It also means that 801's blue side code numbers should be a tad lighter than the roundel outer ring, as should the blue painted codes on ZA193/93 and XZ500/30 of the Hermes' SHARs.

 

Note too that the underside roundels of ZA193/93 were left R/W/B while the underwing codes for XZ459/25 were not over-painted.  Equally, the airbrake numbers of some of Hermes's SHARs is yet to be confirmed due to possible clashes... It is believed that XZ460/26 was 6, while the ex-899 NAS SHAR XZ494/16 carried no airbrake code.  The image in David Morgan's excellent book "Hostile Skies" showing the airbrake chaff fit is believed to be of XZ494/16, which had R/W/B underwing roundels when the photo was taken.  It's not known if they were subsequently made into R/B roundels.  As XZ494 also cross-decked to Invinc and became a replacement 008 for them, we may never know for sure which coloured underwing roundels it flew from Hermes with on operations unless new photos appear.

 

This brightening of the colour from being applied directly over white also applied in 2010 on GR.9A ZG477, the 1(F) Squadron special scheme Harrier, which is why the red portions of its fin sometime look more orange than red in photos.  A fact not recognised by the die-cast producers despite being told of it!

 

Falklands SHARs may be EDSG overall but they are not a dull subject.  Indeed, we've only scratched the surface here!  Hope it helps.

 

Cheers

Nick

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Much appreciated Nick. What I've done is spray my SHAR overall EDSG, then I masked out the underside demarcation line and added a little blue to the EDSG, which i then noodeled over the undersides, followed by a thin overspay of "neat" EDSG to pull it together. This gives me a slightly different brighter tone to the undersides, which - while it may not be right, I do like the look off.

 

I will work out a way to make the R/B overpainted roundel decals look a bit more interesting when I apply them too.

 

really enjoying the build - and you are right - overall EDSG is NOT dull!

 

Jonners

 

 

 

 

 

 

[4scourge7]

During one of today`s `Aircraft Stories` marathon on Quest TV, there was video of parties of chaps (brush) painting out the white undersides and toning down the roundels on the deck of HMS Hermes.

Can`t remember which episode it was, I think it was `British Airpower`.

Also had footage of the attack on Stanley Airfield etc...

Cheers, Ian