HMS Hermes Falkands-era SHAR undersides - brush marks?

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Hi Chaps - when Hermes's SHAR 1's had their white undersides brush painted EDSG on the trip down south - how even was it?  What I mean it is - would it be worth trying to differentiate on a 1/48th scale model between the nice smooth factory applied topside EDSG, and possible more streaky uneven brush painted undersides?  It's hard to see in any period photos - as shadow gets in the way a lot, and being from the pre-digital era a lot of pics aren't too great anyway.

 

Just wondering out loud really?  But any first hand recollections or other info would be most welcome

 

Cheers

 

Jonners

[Dave Fleming]

From pics I've seen it's not really noticeable 

[moaning dolphin]

I have seem recent museum pieces where the aircraft has been brush/roller painted and the finish is really quite good and consistent. Looking at pictures I don't think it would be very noticeable and I think people would have difficulty trying to work out if its a badly painted model or an accurate representation of a badly painted aircraft! If you know what I mean.

 

Bob

[LaurieS]

Jonners the Hermes were certainly brushed.  I cannot see them with all the aircraft they had on board with all the servicing and changing engine units and parts etc being anything than getting painting out of the way as quickly as possible. They had 12 harriers on board and these were being flown daily in exercises.. They had relatively small personel in the servicing engineering dept plus little room for all of the work involved which was painting the whole aircraft. Invincible as a matter of interest had a spray booth in built.

 

If you viewed the aircraft far enough away to represent 1/48 scale you would only see perfect paintwork in that minuscule detail.

 

Laurie

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2016 by LaurieS

[Col.]

There's a photo in Dave Morgan's Hostile Skies which shows a SHAR in the process of having its markings toned down by brush. Although I loaned my copy out and never got it back so can't recall exactly how much can be seen it may be worth searching out a copy to take a look for inspiration if nothing else.

[junglierating]

1 hour ago, LaurieS said:

Jonners the Hermes were certainly brushed.  I cannot see them with all the aircraft they had on board with all the servicing and changing engine units and parts etc being anything than getting painting out of the way as quickly as possible. They had 12 harriers on board and these were being flown daily in exercises.. They had relatively small personel in the servicing engineering dept plus little room for all of the work involved which was painting the whole aircraft. Invincible as a matter of interest had a spray booth in built.

 

If you viewed the aircraft far enough away to represent 1/48 scale you would only see perfect paintwork in that minuscule detail.

 

Laurie

 

 

 

 

A spray booth on a CVS are you sure?😕

[Jbbusybee]

Interesting question, love to see if any pics show anything 

[LaurieS]

1 hour ago, Col. said:

There's a photo in Dave Morgan's Hostile Skies which shows a SHAR in the process of having its markings toned down by brush. Although I loaned my copy out and never got it back so can't recall exactly how much can be seen it may be worth searching out a copy to take a look for inspiration if nothing else.

 

Yes have it on my Kindle. The painter has a two gallon size paint tin and a big brush.

 

Laurie

[LaurieS]

1 hour ago, junglierating said:

A spray booth on a CVS are you sure?😕

 

That is what I read Junglie. Suspect, although not seen it, that it was a curtain type screen with a compressor paint unit. Read about 4 books on the Harrier/ Invincible/Hermes. May have been from Commander "Sharkey" Ward's book Sea Harrier Over The Falklands. A very great read.

 

Lot of jealously between the Hermes and Invincible comes out in the books. The Officer in charge of the Hanger & Maintenance, in the Invincible, was told that Hermes were just slapping paint over the old (paint scheme on the way to the Falklands). This officer told Ward that no way was that happening to his aircraft. He stripped the old paint off before applying the Falkland's scheme. I just love these stories.

 

Laurie

 

 

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Thanks everyone. I bought Dave Morgan's Hostile Skies for my kindle  and its a great read so far.  The pic shows the upper wing roundel being toned down, but you can see there's bit a bit of work down on one of the  underwing pylons too ( did they pre-shade in those days? LOL).

 

I think I'll just go for a very subtle tonal difference between the upper EDSG and the 'field' ( or maybe "sea") applied EDSG below.

 

 

Jonners

 

 

[Silver Fox]

27 minutes ago, Jon Kunac-Tabinor said:

 

I think I'll just go for a very subtle tonal difference between the upper EDSG and the 'field' ( or maybe "sea") applied EDSG below

That's what I did. I'm not sure you can tell the difference though as most of the lightened colour is in shadow.

[bootneck]

11 hours ago, LaurieS said:

 

.............This officer told Ward that no way was that happening to his aircraft. He stripped the old paint off before applying the Falkland's scheme. I just love these stories.

 

That was possibly a brave decision to make; however, it could have become a foolish one.  Imagine you've received the 'Go' for combat conditions and are heading for the war zone which is only a few days away.  To take your combat aircraft off readiness to strip and re-spray them, even if one at a time, could have been a mistake if the enemy brought the fight to you.  Again, taking aircraft off line has to be measured against the possibility of the remaining aircraft not getting technical issues and becoming unserviceable.

 

Mike

[junglierating]

It was probably combination of brush,jetpacks and proper spray equipment.

Next time there is a BNO for the fixed wing guys...tooms buccaneers and shars i will ask ....then ill get called a geek or worse....but for you guys 

Ps im ex harrier not justva junglie....cant win me im a mongral for life!

[LaurieS]

26 minutes ago, bootneck said:

 

That was possibly a brave decision to make; however, it could have become a foolish one.  Imagine you've received the 'Go' for combat conditions and are heading for the war zone which is only a few days away.  To take your combat aircraft off readiness to strip and re-spray them, even if one at a time, could have been a mistake if the enemy brought the fight to you.  Again, taking aircraft off line has to be measured against the possibility of the remaining aircraft not getting technical issues and becoming unserviceable.

 

Mike

 

Doubtful Mike it took , from memory, about 4 weeks for the carriers to reach the Falklands. They also stopped at Ascension where they spent some days replacing Invincible's gearbox..

 

Argentinian aircraft range was 500 miles approx so there was 6500miles in safety. Any odd Argentinian airliner with naughty intentions within 6500 miles (one hung around the task force for days until chased away)  which reached them would have been dealt with if necessary by a pair of Harriers.

 

Laurie

[LaurieS]

16 minutes ago, junglierating said:

It was probably combination of brush,jetpacks and proper spray equipment.

Next time there is a BNO for the fixed wing guys...tooms buccaneers and shars i will ask ....then ill get called a geek or worse....but for you guys 

Ps im ex harrier not justva junglie....cant win me im a mongral for life!

 

Little tit bit for you. Not read this book Kev Darling Fleet Air Arm Carrier War

 

  "reported that some aircraft aboard Hermes were painted using mops and brooms as this vessel, unlike Invincible had no spray painting facilities. The irony was that the rough painted aircraft had a more durable finish than the spray painted"

 

.https://books.google.com/books?id=4P_RAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA246&lpg=PA246&dq=paint+spray+facilities+on+the+Invincible&source=bl&ots=bNmfGkENYy&sig=UjkX6b2z7-JbRF3GdLZP8E72f8A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8gKbg483QAhUPM8AKHca4CGUQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=paint spray facilities on the Invincible&f=false

 

Laurie

[bootneck]

 

1 hour ago, LaurieS said:

 

Doubtful Mike it took , from memory, about 4 weeks for the carriers to reach the Falklands. They also stopped at Ascension where they spent some days replacing Invincible's gearbox..

Argentinian aircraft range was 500 miles approx so there was 6500miles in safety. Any odd Argentinian airliner with naughty intentions within 6500 miles (one hung around the task force for days until chased away)  which reached them would have been dealt with if necessary by a pair of Harriers.

 

Again, from memory, I didn't think they started painting until after the 20th April which was after we left Ascension?  I could be wrong on that as I was over on Canberra by then.

Although the Task Force sailed from UK on 4th-5th April, there was a lot of stooging around Ascension, whilst diplomatic dialogue was undertaken to try to resolve things.  The 'Go' was sent to the force on 20th April which then set south, entering the TEZ 30th which was only 9 actual days.

 

Mike

[bootneck]

As to spraying the aircraft, it was probably a makeshift booth similar to this one erected to spray parts of a Wessex 60.

 

From memory of when I was on Invincible late 1981, I cannot remember any spray booth facility in the hangar.  In fact, with this very narrow hangar layout, there was only room for a single line of fixed wing, or two folded helos tightly stacked side by side. This left only enough room to squeeze past them.

 

I have hi-res scans of the deck plan. If anyone is interested in having a copy, send me a pm with an email addy.

 

Mike

[LaurieS]

Matter of interest Dave Fleming, second reply above, mentions in an article in 2009 about painting the Harrier as having a paint spray facility.

 

Page 89 Sea Harrier over the Falklands Mentions that all Harriers aboard the Invincible had there new livery before they got near to te action.

 

Laurie

 

 

[bootneck]

Could that be reference to the new  grey Harriers which were transferred from the ill-fated Atlantic Conveyor en-route?  It is true though, that the white areas on all aircraft had been painted grey by the time they arrived at the TEZ; I believe the query was whether they were brushed or sprayed.

 

Mike

[moaning dolphin]

55 minutes ago, LaurieS said:

unlike Invincible had no spray painting facilities

 

Often you have to read between the lines, when they said no paint spraying facilities could be interpreted as no jet packs or cans. Where as 'paint spraying facilities' would be cans and air and possibly a curtain. I am not aware of a dedicated area or booth for spraying. As it was early 80s and they were off to war I would have thought that it would have been a rudimentary set up with not much attention dedicated to health and safety. A quick bath in MEK to clean off the grease and then spray the paint on. Even in those days stripping the aircraft would have left an ecological waste nightmare, although it would have probably followed the rest of the ships gash over the side .

 

Bob

[goose]

When I built my 72 scale I sprayed edsg top and where aircraft was white I lightend edsg with some white, then brushed it on, just as a preference hth

 

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

3 hours ago, LaurieS said:

 

Little tit bit for you. Not read this book Kev Darling Fleet Air Arm Carrier War

 

  "reported that some aircraft aboard Hermes were painted using mops and brooms as this vessel, unlike Invincible had no spray painting facilities. The irony was that the rough painted aircraft had a more durable finish than the spray painted"

 

.https://books.google.com/books?id=4P_RAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA246&lpg=PA246&dq=paint+spray+facilities+on+the+Invincible&source=bl&ots=bNmfGkENYy&sig=UjkX6b2z7-JbRF3GdLZP8E72f8A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8gKbg483QAhUPM8AKHca4CGUQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=paint spray facilities on the Invincible&f=false

 

Laurie

You see - all you Hairy Stick painters out there- when the going gets tough, the tough get brushing.... erm.... mopping

Although I imagine it was minimal in reality, I wonder if the extra paint applied via this method had any impact on performance in terms of weight or drag ( assuming mop applied EDSG is thicker than, and isn't quite a smooth as, sprayed EDSG that is!!)

I suppose now my Hellcat NFII is nearly done, I'd better post some WIPs of the SHAR....

 

Cheers

 

Jonners

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Jon Kunac-Tabinor

[bootneck]

Just a note on brush painting on these ships, the paint brushes were usually old, had been used many times, and the bristles would be rock hard from this.  Before starting any new job, some of the brushes had to be softened by smashing the bristles with a hammer.  Ask anyone who has served on board RN ships and had to do chipping and painting. 

 

Mike

[moaning dolphin]

They would also have a Pencil brush and a half inch brush in the ACK (Anti Corrosion Kit) that would be in good condition because no one ever used that kit! Although after 2 aircraft the half inch brush would be looking rather shabby I would suppose!

 

Bob

 

Was just having a goggle of the tinternet to see if I could find any references when I came across this site

 

http://grandlogistics.blogspot.ca/2011/01/sea-harriers-and-harriers-in-falklands.html

 

I think they need to check their references (I don't think we lost several harriers did we?)

Edited November 29, 2016 by moaning dolphin
more info!

[bootneck]

Ah!  the old large plastic briefcase ploy!  It was amazing what you could find useful in one of those cases; however the wafu's would never let us booties near such items. Same went for their large aircraft tool kits.