RAF Otter armoured car

[Kingsman]

I found this pic of an RAF Otter in the Middle East.  Very non-standard armament intrigued me.  Twin 303 Brownings on the turret with an obviously high angle (AA?) capability.  They look to be on an aircraft-type flexible mounting, logical for RAF.  I can't tell from the photo if the back of the turret is cut down: looks like it might be.  The 20mm Hispano cannon in the hull mount is very non-standard too.  Having access to aircraft weaponry obviously has its advantages for the Short Range Desert Group!  The gun on the ground is an early 0.50" AN/M2 Browning - note the long cooling slots - also on an aircraft flexible mount.  Maybe a waist gun from a B24, B25 or similar.  So are these guys just armourers servicing weapons, or is there another Otter out of shot missing a 0.50"?  Doing it out in the open by the vehicle suggests the latter.

My modelling juices are leaning in the direction of an IBG Otter, Panzer Art wheels and parts of a Black Dog stowage set.  I've got some resin Brownings and brass barrels with the flash hiders already.  No-one does a 1/35 Hispano barrel, but there might be a 1/32 one.  Or fiddle about with an RB Oerlikon barrel.

 

Anyone got any, thoughts, views, comments or additional info?

 

 

[dcrfan]

Definitely usual weapons.  The 20mm Hispano was standard airfield defence weapon for RAF Regiment LAA Sqns so they would be relatively easy to obtain. 

[TBC]

This could very well be a staged photo, so who knows if these guys are actually doing anything necessarily. Then again they could very well be servicing the weapons. The turret does look like it is cut back. It would appear that the twin gun fitment sits farther back, so more room was needed?

 

Can't go wrong with the IBG Otter. Nice little kit with lots of fiddly bits and pieces-I have the frame together. Don't know what it is like compared to the Mirror Models offering. I know that the latter contained lots of resin bits in their earlier releases (not necessarily the Otter), and then they re-tooled (I'm guessing) and the kits became largely injected plastic with little or no resin.

 

You've probably looked into any of the 1/32 brass Hispano cannon made by Master to see if they make something close? It would appear in the photo that this cannon type has an exposed recoil spring.

 

The Panzer Art resin wheels for this kit is the way to go as the tread pattern on the kits wheels is pretty much fictitious if not outright wrong. I have had an order in with Panzer Art for 6 weeks now (overseas). Several emails asking if the items have been shipped have not been replied to and my claim through PayPal has not been responded to either, so I don't know what is up with them.

 

Nevertheless, great subject matter. Have fun with the IBG kit.

[Kingsman]

Thanks guys.  Yes it does look a mite staged.  Servicing weapons on the ground in the dust, even on a tarp, would be a last resort.  They're clearly at an airfield somewhere, not in the field.  Note the standard airfield flagstaff and what looks like a building roof in front of the vehicle.  I'd like to think there's another Otter missing its 0.50 from the turret: the ring sight would be little use in a hull mount.. Some Otters in NWE carried an M2 0.50, so why not?

 

I don't know where you get your Panzer Art from, TBC.  I usually get mine from Jadar Model in Warsaw, http://www.jadarhobby.pl.  Thoroughly reliable, as is Polish post: excellent range.  Prices seem to be cheaper in Zloty compared to € or $ at the moment.  I can also recommend Der Sockelshop and Modellbau-Konig in Germany.  I've found them both to be reliable and stocking lots of stuff.  In the UK you can get some Panzer Art from Wildcat's Models on eBay http://stores.ebay.co.uk/wildcatsmodels. He has the Otter wheels. Panzer Art do 2 different Otter wheel sets.  I like the V-tread pattern as in the photo.

 

Anyone got any colour scheme thoughts?  Looks to be camouflaged.  I'm thinking aircraft colours, maybe the sand/brown scheme prevalent in the Middle East.

[Troy Smith]

re  colours

AFAIK RAF vehicles were done in Army paint,   there have been discussions on here about WWII RAF  ground equipment mostly being in S.C.C.2 Brown

note the link to  Mike Starmer's work

http://www.mafva.net/other pages/Starmer camo.htm

 

plenty of Middle  East options to ponder on....

Quote

MIDDLE EAST

 

Middle East practice was determined by local General Orders and, due to supply problems, more variation is apparent than that in Europe.

 

1935 – 1939   In 1936 the 11^th Hussars had Rolls-Royce and Crossley armoured cars together with support trucks in Silver with gloss Black disruptive bands.  In the same year 6 RTC Vickers Medium tanks were in BS.52 Pale Cream with a fairly standard disruptive pattern of BS.46 Red Oxide applied.  By 1937 this pattern had changed somewhat but was the same on every tank and used the same colours.  The 11th Hussars meantime had adopted the same cream/ red colours and established a fairly regular pattern on their Rolls-Royce cars. This unit utilised other colours up to 1939 but the pattern remained.  By this time various other units in Egypt has also adopted disruptive painting of various styles and colours.

 

1939 – 1940 -  On 25 July 1939 G.O 370 specified a basic colour of BS. 62 Middle Stone with a disruptive patterning of ‘Dark Sand’ in style similar to M.T.P. 20.  This scheme appears relatively common in Egypt in summer of 1940.

 

1940 - 1941 -  By mid to late 1940 many newly arrived vehicles and tanks appear to be painted a plain overall colour, BS. 52 Pale Cream is cited for the 6 RTR new A9 cruisers, whilst the more normal colours seem to have been Light Stone No.61 or Portland Stone No.64.  However about November 1940 a new scheme was specified in G.O 297.  This scheme comprised the tri-coloured disruptive designs now known as ‘Caunter Scheme’.  Very many AFVs and softskins carried this scheme of Portland Stone No.64 basic with Silver Grey No. 28 and Slate No.34 or Khaki Green No. 3 in angular disruptive stripes.  Period G.Os specify Light Stone No.61 or Portland Stone No.64 at various times and a local variation may have substituted a mixed light blue-grey for Silver Grey No. 28.  A scheme for use in the Sudan specified Light Stone No.61 with Light Purple Brown No.49 in patches or stripes.  A variation of Caunter was applied for use in Greece during 1941.  This has the areas normally painted Silver Grey 28 to be either Light Purple Brown or Slate 34 and the remainder Light Stone No.61.  The actual pattern deviated in detail from an exact replication of the drawings so perusal of photographs is recommended here.  

 

October 1941  - A Signal 4/105 indicates a painting policy change and calls for one basic colour only, Light Stone No.61 to be used before issue to units with Area Commands allowed to apply a single disruptive colour if desired.

 

December 1941 -  G.O.1272 now calls for a basic colour of Light Stone No.61 or  Portland Stone No.64, according to supplies with one disruptive colour over at the discretion of Commands i.e. Palestine , Malta , Trans-Jordan etc.  This cancels GO 297 of 1940 and GO 795 of 1941.   At first this may have been Slate in patterns similar to Caunter but later possibly Slate No. 34, Silver Grey No. 28 and Black have been noted in apparently random patterns. 

 

Malta adopted a distinctive design generally known as ‘rubble’, a series of light coloured blocks with a darker colour as ‘cement’ lines.  This scheme varied immensely, from the neat appearance of stonework through crazy paving to straight lines like a chessboard. The colours varied from Khaki Green No. 3 lines with Light Stone No.61 or  Portland Stone No.64 ‘stones’ over it to darker lines painted over the original sand colour depending on country of origin. 

 

1942.  Over Light Stone 61 the single colour disruptive was still in force although many units did not employ it whilst others used a variety of schemes, designs and colours, some with black and/or white outlining.

October 1942.  Another policy change issued this month.  G.O.1650 cancels all previous patterns and colours and introduces standardised drawings for certain type and classes of AFV and vehicles as decreed by the Camouflage Directorate of GHQ ME (G(cam)).  Colours to be used are :- Basic shade – Desert Pink Z.I. with a disruptive pattern in Dark (Olive) Green PFI.  Black ( S.C.C. 14), Very Dark Brown ( S.C.C. 1A) or Dark Slate BS. 34 are alternatives.  These designs are common on Shermans , Grants, Valentines, Crusaders, Stuarts and the Churchills of Kingforce (which were most probably Light Stone No.61 over Khaki Green No. 3 or S.C.C. 2 in the Crusader design).  As Desert Pink was a new colour, Light Stone No.61 continued in use on vehicles with or without disruptive paintwork.  Desert pink occurs on its own as a single shade on vehicles of no tactical value and ACVs.  Some ACVs disguised as 10 ton trucks by application of specifically shaped black areas to resemble shadows and structure joins.

 

Where dyed tilts were supplied from the UK and Commonwealth they were chemically bleached to a pale brown colour. 

Although M.T.P.46 had provision for ME colours actual use of this type of scheme has not been confirmed.

 

April 1943 -  G.O 1650 is cancelled by a new G.O with standardised drawings for certain type and classes of AFV and vehicles are decreed by the Camouflage Directorate including new colours for Tunisia , Sicily and Italy .  Basic shade is ‘Light Mud’ with Black in standardised bold disruptive patterns for camouflage.  Green seems to have been used too.  There are indications that Light Mud was used as early as March 1943 in Tunisia . All ‘desert’ colours to be overpainted.  Lend Lease vehicles used ‘Light Mud’ over US Olive Drab as an alternative.  By late 1943 European colours are common.  In May 1944 S.C.C. 15 Olive drab is introduced to replace all earlier schemes.

 

 

is there a date for  the photo?

 

that might give an idea.

 

HTH

[TBC]

On 11/22/2016 at 4:32 PM, Das Abteilung said:

 

 

I don't know where you get your Panzer Art from, TBC.  I usually get mine from Jadar Model in Warsaw, http://www.jadarhobby.pl.  Thoroughly reliable, as is Polish post: excellent range.  Prices seem to be cheaper in Zloty compared to € or $ at the moment.  I can also recommend Der Sockelshop and Modellbau-Konig in Germany.  I've found them both to be reliable and stocking lots of stuff.  In the UK you can get some Panzer Art from Wildcat's Models on eBay http://stores.ebay.co.uk/wildcatsmodels. He has the Otter wheels. Panzer Art do 2 different Otter wheel sets.  I like the V-tread pattern as in the photo.

 

Well, I don't want to hijack this thread with my problem, but I ordered my wheel sets directly from Panzer Art after contacting them through their web site. I was communicating with a fellow named Andrzej Wraclawek. He gave me the total price with shipping, told me my order was ready and I paid with PayPal. That was October 7th. I asked that he notify me when the order was shipped which never happened. I sent 3 more emails asking if it was shipped and these were never replied to. I filed a Dispute through PayPal on November 4th which has now been escalated to a Claim for Refund as of November 20th. I had to escalate to a Claim for Refund by November 24th or my case would have been automatically closed. All of this with no word from them. So what's going on?

 

The tread pattern in the image looks like the Panzer Art Firestone tire and not Dunlop. I forgot to mention that I have this image also. I have it saved as "RAF Regiment Otter at Habbaniyah, Iraq." I don't remember where I got it from.

I highly recommend Mike Starmer's books. I have all 4 of them and they are a great resource.

 

On 11/22/2016 at 4:32 PM, Das Abteilung said:

 

 

[Kingsman]

I've just ordered the book "In Every Place: The RAF Armoured Cars in the Middle East 1921 -1953".  That should be interesting.  I'm not sure that RAF vehicles were necessarily bound by the same colour scheme orders as Army vehicles, and they would certainly have easier access to RAF paint stocks than Army.  Like the aircraft weapons.

[dcrfan]

I have the book.  A great read.  It does appear RAF vehicles did follow Army directives.   I question if much painting other than patch painting of aircraft repairs really occurred in forward areas where the armoured cars operated?  I'm sure painting of aircraft was a much higher priority that RAF Regt and Armd car Sqns.  I just finished reading abut the RAF Regt role in Burma.  They certainly were 2nd class citizens in the RAF structure in that theatre. 

[Mike Starmer]

RAF cars were painted the same as Army vehicles.  If you applied nitrocellulose enamel paint aircraft spec. over the original standard paint it would strip it off.  I know, I did it.  This car appears to be in M.E. but exactly where is not stated.  If North Africa then Light Stone 61 is the most likely basic colour but this was also retained in Italy in 1943.  The tone doesn't look dark enough to me to be Light Mud but ...?  There is also the possiblity of local commercial paint deemed of suitable colour too in Italy.

[stevehnz]

8 hours ago, dcrfan said:

  I just finished reading abut the RAF Regt role in Burma.  They certainly were 2nd class citizens in the RAF structure in that theatre. 

May I ask what book that was in. I had an older friend, now deceased, who'd served in the RAF Regt post war & I'm quite interested to find out more about them. The RAF armoured cars in the Middle East sounds like one worth tracking down.

Steve.

[dcrfan]

5 hours ago, stevehnz said:

May I ask what book that was in. I had an older friend, now deceased, who'd served in the RAF Regt post war & I'm quite interested to find out more about them. The RAF armoured cars in the Middle East sounds like one worth tracking down.

Steve.

http://www.rafregt.org.uk/raf-regiment-history/book-constant-vigilance-raf-regt-burma-campaign/

 

By the same author as RAF Armoured Cars in the Middle East.  I have just finished reading the Ecopy of the RAF Regt Burma book which was OK except the maps are impossible to read.   See PM to you.

 

Paul

Edited November 27, 2016 by dcrfan

[Brailledave]

A couple of things I'd like to point out:

 

The Otter actually belongs to 1 Armoured Car Company, RAF- not the RAF Regiment. 1& 2 ACC were the proud remnants of the middle-east colonial policing role the RAF were given prior to WW2. Quite why they were not absorbed into the RAF Regt when it was formed has been lost in the midst of time. I suspect because the ACC's were a bit 'free-spirited' for the RM & Coldstream Guards instructors that trained the RAF Regt- it was rumoured that the officers were offered ACC posts as an alternative to being cashiered, and the men were posted to avoid violence charges

 

...These boys were the original 'Long range desert group'- right from the get-go in the twenties these units would frequently go off into the ulu for weeks at a time. During WW2 One of them re-inforced 11 Hussars (at El-Alemein) from Palestine: over 1000miles in 3 days (the planned rate of advance for mechanised troops over that terrain was 150miles a day) they were certainly considered 'hard men' by 11 hussars, who also considered them an asset.

 

And finally, the amount of weaponry was quite common for ACC cars- they were renowned for nicking every spare weapon they could find. (I have a colleague in my RAFA, who was an armourer in the desert, and he always said that the ACCs would swarm around crashed aeroplanes, rescuing the crews and nicking the guns) The Rolls-Royce's they had started WW2 with, initially had a Vicker HMG, and Lewis LMG, soon afterwards they mounted a Boys ATR as well (something 11 Hussars copied) the single Lewis was replaced with twin Lewis and as soon as they could; twin VGO... Some had twin Brownings too. They nicked vehicles too- 2 ACC had two Sd Kzv 251s on strength until the late forties.

 

The joke was that they were given Otters because it was the only LRC that had the space for all their weaponry.