Here we go, next Seafire Airfix Mk 17

[corsaircorp]

On ‎25‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 15:25, Troy Smith said:

Hi CC

 

what Seafire 17 are you planning on building, and do you have any photos?  

 

I had a look through Seafire Warpaint and the 17's don't show the 47 bulge, neither do the Seafire 45 and 46's. 

this shot shows the bulge on a Seafire 17

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Seafire/MkXVII-VL105-SX336/pages/Airworthy-Seafire-MkXVII-VL105-SX336-Warbird-03.html

 

it's pretty low bulge, more like the ones on the 16 wing I showed above.

 

I'd  not trust the Airwaves nose,  also note the Airfix PR XIX has a slightly undersized spinner, and so also nose ring.

The Airfix 17 spinner is OK.

 

I'll check if the Airfix Seafire wing needs to be thinned,  it should be 7mm deep for 1/48th.

 

more later

T

Hello Troy,

I'll make the SX370 from 728FRU Sqdn in Hal far, Malta.

As the bulge is now well cemented, I just can sand it down, and I will just do that.

SX370 is a FR 17 but no camera has been fitted, So I'll build the empty racks.

And... Oh yes, I have to sand it rightly, she is just painted with a metalcote with some yellow bands.

She sport the big 3 spokes wheels and has bulges on the wing, I've been a little bit too "white rabbit"

Thank again.

Corsaircorp

[corsaircorp]

Hello dears,

Here's a morale booster for carrying on with the seafire, made by my wife

Schwarzwelder Kïrchentörte...

Try it with a good Liebefraumilch.

Thank you all, I'm going eat a part or two...

Corsaircorp

[Miggers]

On 27/11/2016 at 3:52 PM, corsaircorp said:

Hello dears,

Here's a morale booster for carrying on with the seafire, made by my wife

Schwarzwelder Kïrchentörte...

Try it with a good Liebefraumilch.

Thank you all, I'm going eat a part or two...

Corsaircorp

Oh aye,we'll all call around for a bit of that alright.

[Col.]

On 27/11/2016 at 3:52 PM, corsaircorp said:

Hello dears,

Here's a morale booster for carrying on with the seafire, made by my wife

Schwarzwelder Kïrchentörte...

Try it with a good Liebefraumilch...

Looks delicious. Mmmm, Liebefraumilch... 

[corsaircorp]

Hello dears,

I'm a technician, and I acted so.

I took my calliper and gone for some measurements

The thickness at root of the Spitfire wing is 7mm at 1/48 right ?

Airfix Seafire 17's wing =7mm All right,

Airfix Spitfire PR XIX's wing = 7mm All right too

ICM Spitfire Mk XVI's wing = 7mm Still right

Eduard Spitfire Mk IX's wing = 7 mm again

I compared each and all these wings after. everythings right, 7mm for everybody.

The Seafire 17's wing is broader than the Eduard and the ICM ones, see above

Here with ICM

And here with Eduard.

As I also have the PR XIX at hand, I tried it too

And good news... The PR XIX's wing is RIGHT ! A little less work to perform

look it by yourself here below

With Eduard and

with ICM.

I was a bit lazy for getting in the attic and trying the Hobbycraft Seafire XV and Tamiya Spitfire V and Spechob Seafire III.

But it is just a matter of time.

Yo Some relief is welcome, no thinning, just narrowing the Seafire 17.

I will tried Something else to ease me a little bit more.

Still get the problem of the nose and spinner.

But things are going the right way.

Thank for watching.

The Schwarzwelder was very good, my wife do it easily and that's my favourite

But as usual, it goes through the throat too quickly.

This cake create an addiction

Have a very fine day.

Corsaircorp

[Troy Smith]

Hi CC

 

I found my basic calipers (which I'd 'lost'....by chance 'found' stashed in a box of Corsair bits....Can the Academy F4U-4 fuselage be salvaged....think so..but I digress again)

 

Anyway, I checked the Airfix Spit XII (same research as the Seafire 17)  ,and got 7mm as well.

 

what I  did  notice, and you have shown, is  the too broad wing chord, this also affects  the rear of the wing root on the fuselage, making the trailing edge too far back. 

there are photos and discussion here on the Seafire XV, but also regards where the rear trailing edge  actually is

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968126-148-airfix-seafire-xv/&page=2

 

This may answer some questions regarding the SH Seafire III (need a couple of inserts and the wing moving forward a little) 

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234984144-seafire-mk-iii-question/

Quote

what I mean by 'cockpit to wing fillet' is the distance to the rear end of the fillet from the cockpit.

It easier if you tape the Airfix to SH fuselage, aligning cockpit cut outs, and the flip over, the rear of the fillets line up on the underside. This what I man by 'cockpit to fillet' relationship.

The wing is only moved forward by the small extension in the fuel tank. Right, this needs a photo to illustrate, which I shall take now.

the rear plastic strip is at the rear of the fillet.

If you cut as Andrew has the cockpit is then 3mm further back compared to this.

The actual cut point would ideally be at the panel line of fuel tank/cockpit, but this would create problems rejoining the fuselage.

from below, in an attempt to show the alignment, and why a small block at the leading edge is needed. Note how the Airfix and SH are now aligned in wing position, and I have carved the SH wing fillet back a bit.

 

the Tamiya I/V  kits (same  basic airframe)

corrections to fuselage here

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968337-two-148-mkvb-spitfires-tamiya-and-airfix-new-spitfire-collection-expansion-project-finished-photos-now-in-the-rfi-section-080615/&page=3

 

wing needs some work.

I've not dug out the Hobbycraft Seafire XV yet (though I need to  o  stuff in loft,so  I  will) , but the Hobbycraft Spitfire XIV, while basic, is very good in overall shapes.

 

Quote

I will tried Something else to ease me a little bit more.

Still get the problem of the nose and spinner.

 

Having looked again at the Airfix Spitfire XII nose it is the same as the Seafire 17, the exhaust and rocker bulges are too low, but the the spinner looks fine,  just the prop blades are wrong.

 

All  this info needs properly collating, but the links above should answer a lot of questions I hope?

 

cheers

T

[corsaircorp]

 

Hello Troy,

May be having a collection of all these and opening a thread dedicated to the 1/48 Spitfires,

Can be useful to have all on just one topic, or a topic for each Spit or Seafire, don't know.

This week end, I'll try a trick for the Seafire FR 17 and will edit it but whatever? I'll try to correct the wing after all.

I'll keep on carrying the Skull session

After all, I'm a absolute fan of the Jolly roger Squadron (VF 17, 5B, 61, 84 and 103)

Correcting the F4U-4 is not too difficult but boring, since the surface is not well represented.

But did you see the Hobby Boss F4u-5, they put the F4U-4 wing . Lot of Sanding and putty to have a metal wing.

Corsair are my favourite garden, I' ve a lot of her in my collection.

I'll put the correction on my Corsair WIP.

Have a very nice evening.

Corsaircorp.

[corsaircorp]

Hello Dears,

I'm very glad to have signed up with BM, and the more I learn, the more I figure out that finally, despite the appearances, the Spitfire and her navalised counterpart are mistreated.

I suppose that the new tool Mk V from Airfix is about right since it is a LIDARised kit but here are some other measurements

Here are the fuselage of a Eduard Mk IX wich is accurate ? No ?

and below, the Airfix Seafire .17 She is shorter ! but the rear part after the cockpit is about right, so the problem must be once again in the nose of the beast.

I began to cut the nose but I changed my mind because it will changed the backing for the spinner.

I was also about to cut the wing, but it is not easy since there are the flaps and radiator, more... the outside wings panels are right, see on the photos in previous threads.

 

Things are worse with the Airfix Mk XII, this one is even shorter than the Seafire .17

And let's go for a sad smile for the next one..

I opened one my Mk XIV from Hobbycraft, andif the lenght is about right, that must be wooden made Spitfires since there is not a single panel line on the reat fuselage.

May be a maple wood made Aircraft, that can explain why the rear part of the fuselage is so deep.

I have some surgeon's job lying ahead, will buy another set of airwave saws on my next Hannants's order or maybe two.

I'm again on my evening week at the job, so I'll not be very present in the next 6 days.

[corsaircorp]

Hello dears,

I search my documentation and find these dimensions

Spitfire Mk I, Mk II, Mk Vb, seafire Mk IIc and Mk III are 29ft 11in or 9,12meters and so 19cm at 1/48

Spitfire Mk VII, Mk VIII, Mk IX and Seafire XV early are 31ft 10in or 9,47m and so 7mm longer than the previous. (19,7cm)

Airfix Mk XII has been washed too hot, I guess, since

Spitfire Mk XII is 31ft 7in long or 9,62m and so 20mm at 1/48

Spitfire Mk XIV is 32ft 8in long or 9,95m and so again 7mm longer than the Mk XII (20,7cm)

Spitfire 24 is about 32ft 11in or 10,03m and so 8mm longer than the Mk XII (20,8cm)

The longest beast is the Seafire 47 wich is 34ft 4in or 10,46m and so 21,7cm

I will check it again on the kits.

I really enjoyed Spitfires

Seemingly the rear part of many Merlin and early Griffon are the same, did I guess well ??

Thank you beforehand.

Corsaircorp

[Troy Smith]

Hi CC

 

I pm'd you this

 

the part A-F is the same on ALL Spitfires and Seafires,  the part A-G are the same on all up to the larger fin of the 22/24,  

 

Taking overall lengths is not very useful, as the changes come with different engines, spinners and tails.

 

the engine compartments of the Spitfire XII, Seafire 15 and 17 are the same, as they all have a single stage griffon, the engine compartment on the two stage Griffons are the same,  so 14, 18, 19, 21, 22, 24, Seafire 45, 46, 47.

 

There are two versions of the Hobbycraft XIV, one with rear fuselage panel lines, one without!  Give the trenchy nature of HC panel lines, this is a blessing in disguise!

 

I don't  remember that the Hobbycraft had  a deep fuselage, I'll check later,  but I do remember being surprised at how good a match it was for the Cooke plans.

the shortness of the Cooke rear fuselage mentioned in my PM is in the E-F area as far as I can see.  Apart from any noted errors the rest of the drawings are the best drawings available of the Griffon Spitfires.

 

I'm still waiting for some measurements of a Seafire 17 nose panels.

 

HTH

T

 

PS from 

 

Hi Andrew, I have just dug out my Supermarine MK 16 Fuselage drawing, The length of the fuslage from frame 5 [ firewall ] to the rudder post is 245 inches which is 6223mm and at 1:48th scale is 129.645833mm.

Its worth remembering that the MK 22 onwards had a larger 'Spiteful' Tail and this put the rudder post further back for the first time since the prototype so the length should be longer.

[corsaircorp]

On ‎06‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 13:11, Troy Smith said:

Hi CC

 

I pm'd you this

 

 

the engine compartments of the Spitfire XII, Seafire 15 and 17 are the same, as they all have a single stage griffon, the engine compartment on the two stage Griffons are the same,  so 14, 18, 19, 21, 22, 24, Seafire 45, 46, 47.

There are two versions of the Hobbycraft XIV, one with rear fuselage panel lines, one without!  Give the trenchy nature of HC panel lines, this is a blessing in dis!guise

I don't  remember that the Hobbycraft had  a deep fuselage, I'll check later,  but I do remember being surprised at how good a match it was for the Cooke plans.

the shortness of the Cooke rear fuselage mentioned in my PM is in the E-F area as far as I can see.  Apart from any noted errors the rest of the drawings are the best drawings available of the Griffon Spitfires.

 

I'm still waiting for some measurements of a Seafire 17 nose panels.

 

HTH

T

 

PS from 

 

Thank you Troy,

Yes I got the plan, I printed it and put it at 1/48 scale to my local copy service. It's useful.

I agree about the blessing in disguise.

As I'm working every evening this week, that left me sometimes to cry over my Hobbycraft vampire's collection.

I will order some plans from HDP, und Arbeit mein liebe.

Corsaircorp.

[corsaircorp]

Hello Dears,

Back in the game yesterday, I've worked on my F4U-1, my Fw 190D-9, some measurement on the P-47N and... The Seafire 17.

Here's the resin seat added to the Airfix part.

As it has been said numerous time in my infancy, the motto of my father's regiment was and still is "Who dares wins"

I dared, I'll try to win now. I found that the mistake in the wing lie in the area before the main spar.

Whatever, it's also the area where it's easier to modify Something...

I also take a little time to change the wing's bulge.

I'll sand about 1mm and the re-adjust the whole thing and engraving the main spar line 1mm forward.

 

One of the rocker cover is gone, and then I'll look more closely at the fuselage.

Have a nice day.

Corsaircorp

[TheBaron]

Engrossing work Cc. Loving that attention to detail and cross referencing - I've something similar lined up for a couple of Sea Vixens in the future so fascinated to see how you get on with its FAA precursors. Nice cake segment too! 

Tony

[corsaircorp]

Hello dears,

Here we go, Since I've a huge house but that's a huge WIP. I make my model on the kitchen table in the evening.

I show you my R&R place, see what I mean by Blue Chimay (at right)

I finished the surgery on one wing, UND FOILA....

No more différences with the Eduard wing but still have to fix the putty.

My lady will be natural metal, so sanding will be important.

Meanwhile, I changed the wing bulge, this one came from an Eduard Mk XVI.

I also spend some time on my Trumpeter MiG 21 and my F4U-4 family.

The -1 will be in the RFI in a few days.

3 kits finished in just one year Waow I don't believe myself .

More to come soon.

Corsaircorp

[corsaircorp]

11 hours ago, TheBaron said:

Engrossing work Cc. Loving that attention to detail and cross referencing - I've something similar lined up for a couple of Sea Vixens in the future so fascinated to see how you get on with its FAA precursors. Nice cake segment too! 

Tony

Hello Tony,

Thank you a lot. What are your Sea Vixen's ?

I have of course the Airfix one and a Dynavector both at 1/48.

For this while, I search some references and documentation.

But my first head scratching project about the FAA is the making of 2 Wyvern.

One, of course for operation "Musketeer" and the other one will be the prototype, the one wich is retired at Yeovilton.

The one with the Rolls Royce Eagle . Yep, call me a fool.

And once again, I have the chinese Wyvern and the Dynavector one.

Don't know if such a surgery is necessary, for the Seafire I mean, If you do a model from the box...

Well it will look like a Seafire.17 but knowing that, I cannot at least try to correct it.

Dis you have started the Sea vixen ? I will follow it with attention.

Thank you again.

Have a nice modelling day

Corsaircorp

[TheBaron]

5 hours ago, corsaircorp said:

What are your Sea Vixen's ?

I have of course the Airfix one and a Dynavector both at 1/48.

For this while, I search some references and documentation.

Hi Cc.

I've the High Planes1/72 job to make a FAW.1 from, and the old Frog 1/72 to do up a FAW.2. The FAW.1 would be from the Ark Royal air wing, the '2 I haven't decided yet. One thing I want to do is measure both kits in critical dimensions against engineering plans: I'd started up a thread about this over in the Cold War section that grew considerably from my original questions:

Tony

[corsaircorp]

5 hours ago, TheBaron said:

Hi Cc.

I've the High Planes1/72 job to make a FAW.1 from, and the old Frog 1/72 to do up a FAW.2. The FAW.1 would be from the Ark Royal air wing, the '2 I haven't decided yet. One thing I want to do is measure both kits in critical dimensions against engineering plans: I'd started up a thread about this over in the Cold War section that grew considerably from my original questions:

Tony

Hello Tony,

I'm going to see it right now.

Thank you

Corsaircorp

[Wlad]

Hello Corsaircorp,

 

I've jumped in a little late on the propeller width conversation. I've visited the Military Museums in Calgary and they have a Seafire XV there. I measured the propeller width and for the life of me I cannot find the paper with the measurements. I did use the measurement to fix the propeller blades on the Special Hobby kit as they are too wide. My blades ended up being 5.75 mm at the root, which is their widest point. The Airfix blades for the Seafire XVII are 4.8 mm at the root and 5.25 mm at their widest point, making them too narrow and not the correct shape.

 

You can see my correction at ARC http://www.arcair.com/Gal14/13601-13700/gal13629-Seafire-Franco-Valias/00.shtm, though the angle of the picture makes the corrected blade appear too narrow. A look at the finished model gives a better impression and looks more like the reference pictures posted earlier here.

 

Cheers,
Wlad

[corsaircorp]

Hello Dears,

Here we go with another funny Seafire 17 and some other perfect ladies.

 

Hi Troy, the plan you sent me is now fully used, No discussions, the Eduard Mk IX is a perfect, perfect lady !

The Seafire 17 is missing 3 mm in lenght, problem... The Karman is at his right place...

see..

The problem lie in the nose, but, let's have fun forward AND behind the exhaust stacks

Now, let's have more fun...

here's the Hobbycraft Mk XIV

The Airfix PR XIX,

 

The tail unit should be the same for these kits BUT, there's a but... I tend to believe that the Airfix one is the right one, since the Hobbycraft is more looking like a Starfighter wing in proflie.

I keep carrying on, in next weeks, I will go and take some measures on the 1/1 Spitfire Mk XIV.

Hope that you enjoy the researches and thank you all for the support.

Sincerely.

Corsaircorp

[corsaircorp]

11 hours ago, Wlad said:

Hello Corsaircorp,

 

I've jumped in a little late on the propeller width conversation. I've visited the Military Museums in Calgary and they have a Seafire XV there. I measured the propeller width and for the life of me I cannot find the paper with the measurements. I did use the measurement to fix the propeller blades on the Special Hobby kit as they are too wide. My blades ended up being 5.75 mm at the root, which is their widest point. The Airfix blades for the Seafire XVII are 4.8 mm at the root and 5.25 mm at their widest point, making them too narrow and not the correct shape.

 

You can see my correction at ARC http://www.arcair.com/Gal14/13601-13700/gal13629-Seafire-Franco-Valias/00.shtm, though the angle of the picture makes the corrected blade appear too narrow. A look at the finished model gives a better impression and looks more like the reference pictures posted earlier here.

 

Cheers,
Wlad

Hello Wlad,

Thank you for the measures, we will try to have a very comprehensive Spitfire thread.

Sincerely.

Corsaircorp

[elger]

3 hours ago, corsaircorp said:

Hello Dears,

Here we go with another funny Seafire 17 and some other perfect ladies.

 

Hi Troy, the plan you sent me is now fully used, No discussions, the Eduard Mk IX is a perfect, perfect lady !

The Seafire 17 is missing 3 mm in lenght, problem... The Karman is at his right place...

see..

The problem lie in the nose, but, let's have fun forward AND behind the exhaust stacks

 

Corsaircorp

 

 

I think you're making a mistake here because I think you're comparing your Seafire fuselage to the wrong mark; I don't think you can draw a conclusion regarding the length of your Seafire nose based on this drawing. What's more, the early Griffon marks noses (Spitfire XII, and this Seafire you're working on) are supposed to be shorter than late (2-stage) merlin noses (i.e. IX) as well as later Griffon Spitfire marks (XIV, XIX etc). The nose of a late Merlin Spitfire and late Griffon Spitfire is supposed to be longer than the nose of a XII or early Griffon Seafire like the one you're working on.

Unless I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to do?

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by elger

[corsaircorp]

 Building a "better" Spitfire XII

Hello Elger,

The fact that both the Mk XII and Seafire XV and 17 are longer than the Mk IX.

I will take some measurement on the real thing in some days.

I will verify and cross verify before cutting the beast.

Thank for the tip however.

Corsaircorp

 

[corsaircorp]

Hello Dears,

Still reading about the differencies in between the marks of the Spit and Sea fires.

Ok, let's share and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...

The Early Griffon engined, the XII, XV and 17, had the supercharged Griffon III mounted about 10 inches further forward .

I'll check later, but the Griffon is bigger than the Merlin. Both in capacity and length.

So, the XII, XV and 17 must be at least as long as the Mk VII and so series, if not a little bit longer.

I mean the length from O to G on the here above plans.

The deepness of the nose is also different, the griffon's band is less deeper than the Merlin ones.

That's only Rock'n Roll and we like it...

To be continued...

Hope that you all have had a very nice and merry Christmas.

Thank you all sincerely.

Corsaircorp

[elger]

Early Griffon indeed longer than a single stage Merlin (Spit I-VI); not necessarily longer than a 2-stage Merlin (Spit IX, VII, VIII etc).

 

I think that from shortest to longest noses (O-A in the drawings) you'd have:

 

1) single stage Merlin 

2) early Griffon

3) 2-stage Merlin

4) late Griffon

 

I think that the length of an early Griffon nose is about half way between single and 2-stage Merlins. 

 

I'm curious what you'll find out measuring the real thing! 

Edited December 25, 2016 by elger

[Troy Smith]

Quote

  On 19/02/2011 at 21:13, Edgar said:

Today, I measured the Seafire 17, at Yeovilton; I had to use a folding measure, rather than a tape, so can't swear that each measure is within a fraction, but I used the old maxim "measure twice, cut once," so they are as follows (actual measure first in inches, then to 1/48 in mm, then the Airfix fuselage):-

Engine compartment 74.5" 39.4mm 39.1; fuel tank 34" 18 18.6; cockpit 57" 30.2 29.9; transport joint (middle) 114.5" 70.6 70.3. I couldn't get aft of the transport joint, because there were boxes, tables, and bodies in the way. However, totalling that lot, I make the real thing, in 1/48 148.2mm, and the Airfix fuselage 147.9, a difference of .3mm, or a fraction over half an inch; I can live with that, but it means that two printed plans have been printed short, while Peter's drawings have some of the panel lines in the wrong place.

Edgar

 

the above I think got lost in the links,  I'm awaiting Peter Arnold measuring his Seafire XVII parts,  I measured the Airfix Spitfire XII engine compartment at 39 mm,  the Seafire XVII should be the same.

EDIT - just checked, the Airfix Seafire XVII engine comparment is 39 mm.  

the Airfix kit is the right length, but too too deep, as stated one page 1.

 

HTH