More on Airfix 2017

[stevehnz]

24 minutes ago, Rabbit Leader said:

Kit Starter - slap on 30 quid international postage to the already overpriced base kit. 

 

Q. So where was I?

A. As far away as possible !! 

 

Cheers.. Dave 

Ditto me too Dave, imho, Airfix shot themselves in the foot on the Kickstarter thing by alienating cutting out most of their international customer base. Vintage kits sold on the open market might well have a better chance, but given Giorgios well thought out post just a few above this, its probably never going to happen.

Steve.

[ivand]

Funny thing is, those kitstarter Beagle Basset kits that were supposed to have been produced on a "made to order" base, are now being sold off by a vendor:

"Top selling" - "22 sold"...

 

Must admit I bought one myself, at least the postage wasn't 30£ now!

[charlie_c67]

I think price and lack of choice were what put paid to kickstarter. Whilst I'd've liked both kits. £15 each, with no guarantee it'd be made would have put a lot of people like myself off.

[sroubos]

Airfix already do a vintage kits line.   As does any other kit manufacturer. We usually call them reissue or repop or re-release or whatever and I suppose you can add vintage to that list. 

 

They sell these at whatever price point their marketing guys and girls say will maximise profits. Usually they sell them in boxes that look the same as their other kits, but sometimes they slap a gold-coloured label on a sepia-coloured box and tell us it's an anniversary edition or whatever. 

 

My point is, it's been done and it will continue to be done. Repops are a cost efficient way of generating profits and companies know this. 

 

I highly doubt there will be a separate vintage kits program because I think it would lose money. A small group of older modelers will like these for nostalgic reasons but the vast majority will go for the shiny modern looking boxes. 

[Albeback52]

16 hours ago, Ratch said:

I wonder where you guys were when Airfix did their Kitstarter experiment. Hardly a resounding success.

Well, I was there but, the choice of subjects was a little bizarre ( at least to me anyway). Very old and poorly detailed figures. A couple of aircraft I had no interest in. A couple of old car kits as well and, last but not least, the bird kits from the wildlife series. Out of the whole lot, I would only have taken the bird kits!! Very limited appeal but beautifully moulded. Thing is though, you can still pick them up for less than the Kitstarter price. I think the idea was good but, the implementation was poor - largely due to the very odd (again, just my opinion) choice of kits.

 

Allan

[Ratch]

I think that most people miss the point that for a economic production run Airfix must look at 10-15,000 kits. More if possible. The longer the run the more cost effective it is. Kitstarter was always looking at a short run, and therefore costs would be adversely affected. I don't think Airfix did much (if any) research into what kits would sell, and blindly picked out a few random tools from their store. It certainly could have been handled better, but the costs would still (probably) have been prohibitive. I'd guess that they set the Kitstarter target at around 5,000 kits and never got close. I'll bet even the Bassett that was issued was undersubscribed. In production it is almost impossible to manufacture a precise quantity, and it is always better to make a few extra rather than not enough to fulfil orders, hence someone has got some of that overproduction to sell off. Do you really expect Airfix to throw those kits away?

[Dave Fleming]

Intesresting he's selling them at the same price Airfix were. Now can someone please do some proper decals for them!!

Edited April 21, 2017 by Dave Fleming

[AntPhillips]

6 minutes ago, Ratch said:

 In production it is almost impossible to manufacture a precise quantity, and it is always better to make a few extra rather than not enough to fulfil orders, hence someone has got some of that overproduction to sell off. Do you really expect Airfix to throw those kits away?

 

It's strange how they now have surplus stock, yet when I received my Kitstarter Beagle kit, it was missing a fuselage half (and that's an indictment of a lack of quality control, but that's another subject), and I was initially told that as all the production run had been preordered there were no spares, eventually after a follow up phone call, I did receive a replacement fuselage part and I've often wondered just where the spare fuselage came from.

[Ratch]

2 hours ago, AntPhillips said:

 

I was initially told that as all the production run had been preordered there were no spares, eventually after a follow up phone call, I did receive a replacement fuselage part and I've often wondered just where the spare fuselage came from.

All this illustrates is that the Customer Care/Spares Dept. did not have any when you made your enquiry, but some turned up later for them to supply your missing part. The pre-orders were met first and any residual mouldings were dealt with after those pre-orders were shipped.

[Andre B]

Yesterday I've got two Airfix kits from an reseller. It was the old 1/144 scale Boeing 737 and the newer 1/72 scale F2.A Lightning.

 

http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=852

http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=334&t=37353

 

The F2.A doesn't need much words today. It's an wellknown kit that many builders have seen and built. It's an serie 4 aircraft within a red box full with parts (92) and great decals. One cant get much moore inside that box as it is "full", It's good value for many with an list price of £18.99 (I've got mine får 169.00 SKr, around £11.00).

https://www.airfix.com/uk-en/shop/aircraft/military-aircraft/english-electric-lightning-f-2a-1-72.html

 

The old Boeing 737 (it's what I knew an 737-200) on the other hand comes in an much moore bigger box than the Lightning. In fact this small kit (210 x 190 mm and just 48 parts) is almost comparable to the old Airfix series 2 Messerschmitt Me 110D in size and parts. It started it's life as an serie 3 kit and but is today reissued as an serie 4 kit. And in fact, this kit together with it's decals would fit well in an serie 2 box in the same size as most Spitfire's and Mustang's.

The Boeing 737 latest reissue with new decals was 2014 and 2015 but is for the moment not available from Airfix. But the older Boing 707-436 is reissued for £24:99. The list price for an Airfix Boing 737 at Hannant's is 14:99 and one can get the older one with Lufthansa decals from Kingkit at £14:99. At eBay one can find the newer Revell Boeing 737-800 in lots of different boxings/decals from £9.99...

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Revell-1-144-Boeing-737-800-plastic-model-kit-Air-Berlin-Sobelair-markings-/182540173844

 

Of course, this is different types of kits that for most has different buyers and builders. But comparing kit against kit I woul'd say it is fooling an builder to sell sometihing old as the Airfix Boeing 737-100 for 14:99 compared to the new F2.A Lightning at 18:99. A more fair price in my opinion would be around 6.99 to 9.99 concerning the age of the kit, size an numbers of parts and of course decals...

 

But isn't this the problem concerning new and older kits and how to sell them? Is an old kit "priceworthy" compared to newer kits and would it sell enough to pay it's cost? Is there enough builders out on the market that would pay the price over an given time of months/years?

 

Cheers / André

Edited April 25, 2017 by Andre B

[charlie_c67]

That's more likely to be down to supply and demand though. A prime example being the Revell Hunters or Fujimi British Phantoms which can go for north of £20 when they're probably worth half that. When the Airfix Phantom comes out it will be interesting to see what effect it will have on the market...

[Armadillos]

What has really surprised me with the reincarnated Airfix is yes i understand that the likes of Lanc`s, Spit`s, P-51`s and the like are their bread and butter cash earners they haven`t released items i`d expect and by this i don`t mean a 1:32 vunderflug circa 1935 or such.  What i was actually think was present day stuff such as a new tooling of a (Eurofighter) Typhoon or F-15, F-22, F-35 or F-16 i understand obviously there are issues cost wise regarding licence fees and tooling etc but i would of thought producing these (whilst others are available on the market they don`t earn money for Airfix) kits of aircraft that can be seen in the here and now would complement the "classic" world war 2 kit earners?

 

Ok may just be me but just surprises me that it hasn`t happend, as a company looking to maximise revenue i would of thought a no brainer?

[Geoff_B]

31 minutes ago, Armadillos said:

What has really surprised me with the reincarnated Airfix is yes i understand that the likes of Lanc`s, Spit`s, P-51`s and the like are their bread and butter cash earners they haven`t released items i`d expect and by this i don`t mean a 1:32 vunderflug circa 1935 or such.  What i was actually think was present day stuff such as a new tooling of a (Eurofighter) Typhoon or F-15, F-22, F-35 or F-16 i understand obviously there are issues cost wise regarding licence fees and tooling etc but i would of thought producing these (whilst others are available on the market they don`t earn money for Airfix) kits of aircraft that can be seen in the here and now would complement the "classic" world war 2 kit earners?

 

Ok may just be me but just surprises me that it hasn`t happend, as a company looking to maximise revenue i would of thought a no brainer?

 Have made same suggestion for some years as their Tornado and Typhoon badly needed retooling more so than their harrier GR-7 to GR-9. I suspect it could be the Licensing costs that's the bug bear, plus with Revell having pretty modern tooling's of both kits that generally have a lower RRP I doubt they could justify the expenditure to produce a fine accurate kit only to find it both gazumped on release and undercut by cheaper Revell re-issues with updated Decals and possible an extra sprue of updated hardware.

Maybe next year with the RAF 100 but I bet they focus on legacy aircraft from the World Wars and Cold War rather than current types.

[HMSLion]

Were I doing Airfix's planning, I'd concentrate on what hasn't been done to death.  A Spitfire XIV would be a hot seller in 1/48.  Do a P-8 in 1/72, and you're the only game in town.  And interwar aircraft are a growth area.  Also early Cold War...scale down the Javelin and Sea Vixen to 1/72.

 

I'll add one other thing...offer kits with a stand that can be built in the in-flight configuration.

Edited April 25, 2017 by HMSLion

[Andre B]

Is there any licensing fee concerning aircraft financed by taxpayers? The F 35 will probably show up as soon there is an bristtisg aircraft carrier with F-35's. And there is still no Scimitar in 1/72...

 

/André

Edited April 25, 2017 by Andre B

[Learstang]

I'll second about down-sizing the Javelin and the Sea Vixen. And whilst we're at it, how about down-sizing the Spitfire XII to 1/72nd scale? The P-8 is a good idea also. That would fit in with their Nimrod and Shackleton in regards to 1/72nd scale maritime patrol aircraft.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

[Giorgio N]

10 hours ago, HMSLion said:

Were I doing Airfix's planning, I'd concentrate on what hasn't been done to death.  A Spitfire XIV would be a hot seller in 1/48.  Do a P-8 in 1/72, and you're the only game in town.  And interwar aircraft are a growth area.  Also early Cold War...scale down the Javelin and Sea Vixen to 1/72.

 

I'll add one other thing...offer kits with a stand that can be built in the in-flight configuration.

 

The problem with what hasn't been done to death is the size of the potential market.

Airfix know just by looking at their past sales that for example a Spitfire Mk.I has a certain potential of X kits each year. What is the potential of the P-8 ?

If this potential is below the numbers needed to recover the investment and make a profit there's no way that Airfix or any other company will make a kit. And even if the potential market allows a profit to be made, why choose to be the only ones to cover a 5,000 pieces market when they can take 10% of a 100,000 pieces market ?

 

As licensing has been mentioned, Airfix would have no problem with licenses for aircrafts like the Typhoon or the Tornado as Hornby already produces models of these types under the Corgi brand (and the Typhoon is also in Airfix easy build line). If a license is needed for these types, then it's very likely that Hornby already has such license

[Albeback52]

14 hours ago, Armadillos said:

What has really surprised me with the reincarnated Airfix is yes i understand that the likes of Lanc`s, Spit`s, P-51`s and the like are their bread and butter cash earners they haven`t released items i`d expect and by this i don`t mean a 1:32 vunderflug circa 1935 or such.  What i was actually think was present day stuff such as a new tooling of a (Eurofighter) Typhoon or F-15, F-22, F-35 or F-16 i understand obviously there are issues cost wise regarding licence fees and tooling etc but i would of thought producing these (whilst others are available on the market they don`t earn money for Airfix) kits of aircraft that can be seen in the here and now would complement the "classic" world war 2 kit earners?

 

Ok may just be me but just surprises me that it hasn`t happend, as a company looking to maximise revenue i would of thought a no brainer?

Personally, I would not thank Airfix for producing yet more F-35s, F-16s, F-15s, F-22s, F-18s etc !! There is no shortage of good kits available and, while  they don't (to use a very tired, worn and somewhat overused cliché) make money for Airfix, I think it would be difficult for Airfix to add anything to or, offer any improvement over what is already available. I would however thank them for a new tool Phantom to go with their forthcoming kit of the one true F-4!!. I would also thank them for a new Hunter (single or twin, I don't mind!) and, new tool Lightning F1/F1A/F2/F3/T4/T5. Vulcan B1/B1A/B2, Victor B1 and, any version of the C-130! I realise I don't ask for much!.

 

 

Allan

Edited April 26, 2017 by Albeback52

[Truro Model Builder]

Licensing is a huge issue now, and another cost that has to be factored in when developing new products. Why else have Formula One cars all but disappeared from manufacturers' ranges? Note also that Revell produces a British 4x4 LWB vehicle rather than a Land Rover, and for a while their large HMS Victory set was renamed 'British Sailing Warship'. Revell was also planning to produce a new Aston Martin DB5 and have apparently given it up as a bad job because of the licensing costs. If you look at most Airfix kits the chances are that somewhere there will be a licensing note, for example on the latest P-51:

 

P-51 MUSTANG™ Produced under licence. Boeing, P-51 Mustang, the distinctive Boeing logos, product markings and trade dress are trademarks of the Boeing Company.

 

Or the Martlet:

 

Grumman Martlet Mk.IV is a trademark of Northrop Grumman Systems Corporation and is used under license to Hornby Hobbies Limited.

 

The latter is particularly interesting as Northrop Grumman seem to have trademarked a name and designation that was thought up by somebody else altogether, namely the predecessor to the UK Ministry of Defence. I wonder if the MoD know that?

 

With regard to the Typhoon and Tornado already being produced by Corgi, I wouldn't be totally certain that because it has not applied in the past that new products by Airfix would be automatically covered. I have no idea how these things are negotiated, but I'm willing to bet that it is a separate licence for each product. I can see why companies want money to use their products, but at the same time having models of their products is good advertising and helps to keep their name in the public conscious.

 

[Giorgio N]

31 minutes ago, T7 Models said:

With regard to the Typhoon and Tornado already being produced by Corgi, I wouldn't be totally certain that because it has not applied in the past that new products by Airfix would be automatically covered. I have no idea how these things are negotiated, but I'm willing to bet that it is a separate licence for each product. I can see why companies want money to use their products, but at the same time having models of their products is good advertising and helps to keep their name in the public conscious.

 

 

From my very limited experience, it would really depend on the policy of each licensor. Generally a licensee would purchase a license covering all products within a certain cathegory so that for example if Corgi has a license to use the name Tornado from Panavia on die-cast models, they would be able to use this name whenever they want to make a new Tornado model. If however Corgi wanted to sell mouse-mats with the Tornado name and logo, they may require a new license as this product is likely outside the cathegory for which the license was initially purchased.

Some licensors have separated die-casts from kits in their cathegory list, and have issued different licenses to separate companies. Some just include all of these into the "toys" cathegory, it would depend on how wide the cathegories are and where the licensors believe they can make money. I have gone through such a list from a European military force and they had only a few quite broad cathegories (like clothing items, toys, household items and so on), others have more and narrower cathegories. Clearly a larger number of cathegories allows more potential licensees, what's the point of issuing a license for toys to a single manufacturer that doesn't cover the whole market ? At the same time a single license can bring in more money that 10 smaller ones.

Not knowing the terms of each contract it's of course impossible to tell what Airfix could or not have covered by pre-existing licenses held by Hornby. If I were the Hornby representative, I'd try to buy a license covering the whole range of models that my group could supply, so both die-casts and kits.

There's also the matter of exclusive versus non exclusive licenses: if, again as a hypothetical example, the same Panavia had an agreement with say Revell for the exclusive use of the name Tornado on kits, then there's no way that Airfix could sell a model of this aircraft until the end of the license.

Of course I've used imaginary examples.. we know that there's no exclusive license on the Tornado name as this is currently used by several manufacturers of kits and die-cast models. I know nothing of any license agreements between model companies and aircraft manufacturers so I'm simply applying my very small experience in what is a huge world. And I also know that I'd love a new Tornado F.3 made to the same quality of Airfix recent kits !

I know that with all the possible variations and the lot of "generally" I used, my post is of little use... wonder if there's any lawyer on the forum who has more experience of these issues and can tell us more, of course without divulging any confidential information

[Richard Humm]

When Simon Owen of Airfix was asked about production of current types at his lecture at Hendon last year, he said the main problem was getting enough accurate information. While Westland had been happy to provide their CAD materials for the Merlin, Boeing and Lockheed Martin weren't inclined to provide details of the stealthier fighters like the F-22 and F-35, and you can't go on to an active airbase and start LIDARing them.

[PhantomBigStu]

Other brands have produced very accurate representations (in some cases) of the modern stuff that can't be lidared....

[Rob G]

33 minutes ago, Richard Humm said:

 you can't go on to an active airbase and start LIDARing them.

 

If Airfix truly cared, they'd at least have a go...

 

[Aeronut]

Quote

If Airfix truly cared, they'd at least have a go...

It starts with a letter addressed to.....

"The Public Relations Officer

c/o The Officer Commanding

RAF  (Insert base name)"

[old thumper]

Who would know which model kits would sell best?

Kits of subjects such as the Bristol Beaufort, Vultee Vengeance and DH Hornet have not been released by a proper manufacturer since Frog. Airfix may find that even though these aircraft are not the most widely know that kits of them may be good sellers. The B P Defiant would be a good example of this principle. We have the recent Airfix Whitley as an example of Airfix covering a forgotten Frog kit, whether it was a success of course is another matter.