Backdating a Airfix 1/72 PBY-5A (05007) to a PBY-5

[DennisTheBear]

Hi all! Having recently aquired the Airfix 1/72 Consolidated PBY-5A Catalina (an aircraft I've always liked) I was doing some browsing on the interweb for various military colour schemes that I could knock up from the various decals I have floating around.

One article I found was on the crash of a PBY-5 from 11 Squadron RAAF. This aircraft (A24-52) crashed while landing in Cleveland Bay, here in Townsville during 1943. Thirteen of the 19 people on board were killed, either during the crash or when the depth charges on the wings detonated.

One of the survivors was Air Commodore Arthur Henry Cobby, Air Officer Commanding North Eastern Area. Thats right, the great Harry Cobby himself! I would like to model this aircraft, if possible.

So, here is my question.

Can I backdate the PBY-5A to a PBY-5? What are the mojor visual differences beside the undercarriage? I know that Academy do a PBY-5, but for financial reasons (that being that Mrs. TheBear would have my head on a platter) I won't even consider buying it. I also, for the same reason, don't want to buy a myriad of aftermarket products, or attempt major plastic surgery. Adding a bulkhead might be possible, but extensive detailing of the interior that won't be seen is out. I want to do this as close to OOB as possible.

Thanks in advance for any advice, and fir your patience and forebearance!

 

DennisTheBear

[Adam Maas]

It's not a backdate, the two models were produced concurrently.

The difference is purely the undercarriage, the A is the amphibian and the non-A is a pure seaplane.

Note both aircraft had some visible changes over the course of production, so you'd need to know what exactly the aircraft is. Now a quick check shows it's probably a PB2B-1 (Boeing-built PBY-5), which went to the RAF as a Catalina IVB, with some to the RAAF. So that means it was build in 1942 or 1943 and should be a pretty stock mid-production PBY-5.

[MilneBay]

I did that same conversion some years back - as Adam says the u/c, or lack thereof, is the difference.

 

But you will need to completely detail the highly visible lack of interior detail under the rear blisters. I did that on another Airfix example (that as a straight PBY-5A) but it took time and a lot of studying drawings and photos.  

[Admiral Puff]

What Adam said.

 

You'll also have to reduce the rivet detail  - any Cat I've ever seen was flush riveted. I think Falcon do a canopy set for it, and that's also worth having, if only because the Airfix transparencies are overly thick. If they don't do a set for the Airfix kit they do have one for the Academy, and you should be able to adjust it to fit the Airfix.

[DennisTheBear]

1 hour ago, Adam Maas said:

It's not a backdate, the two models were produced concurrently.

The difference is purely the undercarriage, the A is the amphibian and the non-A is a pure seaplane.

Note both aircraft had some visible changes over the course of production, so you'd need to know what exactly the aircraft is. Now a quick check shows it's probably a PB2B-1 (Boeing-built PBY-5), which went to the RAF as a Catalina IVB, with some to the RAAF. So that means it was build in 1942 or 1943 and should be a pretty stock mid-production PBY-5.

Thanks Adam! The ADF Serials website doesn't appear to specify whether it was built to the British contract and transfered to the RAAF, or to the Australian contract. Nice to know that minimal changes are necessary.

 

[DennisTheBear]

21 minutes ago, MilneBay said:

I did that same conversion some years back - as Adam says the u/c, or lack thereof, is the difference.

 

But you will need to completely detail the highly visible lack of interior detail under the rear blisters. I did that on another Airfix example (that as a straight PBY-5A) but it took time and a lot of studying drawings and photos.  

Thank you! I will do a little bit of scratch building, just enough to  provide an idea, rather than fully detailing. I do appreciate how big the blisters are though, as I was standing next to a restored PBY-5A a few weeks ago.

[DennisTheBear]

25 minutes ago, Admiral Puff said:

What Adam said.

 

You'll also have to reduce the rivet detail  - any Cat I've ever seen was flush riveted. I think Falcon do a canopy set for it, and that's also worth having, if only because the Airfix transparencies are overly thick. If they don't do a set for the Airfix kit they do have one for the Academy, and you should be able to adjust it to fit the Airfix.

Thank you, Admiral! I didn't think about the rivets .  But at least it is a simple (haha) sanding job there. I will be using the kit canopies and blisters though, as buying new ones would entail a sudden, and I fear, complete break from modelling as Mrs. TheBear would clean out the man cave of everything and have a garage sale as soon I went around the shop for a bottle of milk.

 

DennisTheBear

[Admiral Puff]

Ah well, these things are sent to try us, as the old lag said when he looked up at the jury...

 

Remember too that the wing was fabric covered aft of the main spar, so you'll have to be especially attentive to getting the rivets off those areas - IIRC Airfix had rivets all the way to the trailing edge.

[DennisTheBear]

1 hour ago, Admiral Puff said:

Ah well, these things are sent to try us, as the old lag said when he looked up at the jury...

 

Remember too that the wing was fabric covered aft of the main spar, so you'll have to be especially attentive to getting the rivets off those areas - IIRC Airfix had rivets all the way to the trailing edge.

Thank you, Admiral Puff! I didn't know that! It's these details that, while one may have read about them, slip through the cracks of cognition when looking at the plastic, and will make for a better representation of the aircraft.

 

That is why you are, to paraphrase an American poet, Admiral, my Admiral!

 

DennisTheBear

[MilneBay]

This is a pic through the blister of the interior detail I added to mine. I don't have progress shots as I only got the camera a few months after I built the model. All the detail like ribs, bulkhead, door etc are added. I also cleaned up the guns and added some bits to them. 

 

Edited November 13, 2016 by MilneBay

[bertielissie]

Here's a link to a super-detailed Monogram 1.48th PBY5A.It's in 3 parts. It's probably too much for the Airfix PBY5 RAAF version.

http://www.ipmsdeutschland.de/Flugzeuge/Gaeste/Wolf_Catalina.html

 

and another profile PBY5 http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/pby5amjf_1.htm

 

 

and these are a MUST for Aussie  Catalinas http://www.aussiemodeller.com.au/pages/Reviews/Conversions/RRR72122.html

Edited November 13, 2016 by bertielissie
extra link added

[rob85]

@DennisTheBear I have interior shots of a larger scale model from Telford, they are insanely (but beautifully) detailed and displayed as a cross section. Obviously you wouldn't need to go to the same level (unless you want to! ) but it would give you a nice reference point.

 

if you want I can post pics once I've sorted the computer out?

 

 

hth

 

Rob

[DennisTheBear]

Thanks Milne Bay, I think I might be able to do the ribs etc. I'm willing to try at any rate, which is what this hobby is about.

 

Bertie - thanks for the links, I'll definately check them out!

 

Rob85 - that would be great, thank you!

 

This is what makes Britmodeller a great thing for our shared hobby! The BM Massif rules!

 

DennisTheBear

[MilneBay]

One additional thing - because of a slight difference in height of the two fuselage halves in the Airfix kit the wing can mistakenly installed with a downward cant to the starboard side. I recommend very careful test fitting until you get it level and at 90 degrees to the vertical datum. If you don't the finished model will look a bit lopsided.  

[Sydhuey]

A24-52 was a Consolidated build PBY-5 Bu 08335 one of about 30+ PBY-5's diverted from US Navy orders in the first half of 1943 (A24-52 delivered in May 43) several of this batch were earmarked for the RAF and had been assigned RAF serials in the JX series but most were US Navy ordered as this one was, this aircraft would have had the std nose turret (eyeball turrets not fitted at time of loss) and under wing radar antenna , scheme most likely all over black except top of wing in two tone, Black and Non Spectacular Sea Blue or Dark Sea Grey (still conjecture about Catalina cam colours).   

[DennisTheBear]

Thanks Milnebay, I'll watch out for that!

 

Sydhuey, thank you!

 

Some info on, and pictures of, the crash at

http://www.ozatwar.com/ozcrashes/qld190.htm

 

DennisTheBear

[perdu]

Have fun with the Airfix Cat she's an interesting build

 

As for smooth rivets on  Cat I'd say no way, she is a very knobbly airframe

 

There's aDanish PBY5-A  Cosford that I visited frequently when researching mine and the rivets are extremely visible all over

 

The mainplane's rear chord section is fabric covered and is very visibly sagging on pictures of some aircraft so its worth derivetting that bit

 

Good luck with a worthy project

[perdu]

A bit more, why dont I show you how lumpy they are

 

 

 

 

 

 

The wing fabric section shows quite clearly too

 

 

All flying control surfaces are fabric covered too

 

I've no doubt the kit's rivets numbers and placings might disturb a 'counter' but they worked out OK for me

Edited November 14, 2016 by perdu

[TonyTiger66]

What colours will it be Dennis? I had a look at the site you linked to and it doesn't look black; it looks quite light.

 

Its a great idea for a model, a good tribute to those lost that day.

 

I hope you can do a WIP when you get stuck into it?  

 

All the best

TonyT

[DennisTheBear]

1 hour ago, TonyTiger66 said:

What colours will it be Dennis? I had a look at the site you linked to and it doesn't look black; it looks quite light.

 

Its a great idea for a model, a good tribute to those lost that day.

 

I hope you can do a WIP when you get stuck into it?  

 

All the best

TonyT

Ah, that is a very good question Tony. You're right in saying it doesn't appear black. Looking at the images tha bottom of the hull is very dark, and probably is black.

Other images of 11sqn Catalinas show that some were black and some carried 2 tone upper-surface comouflage.

This will require a bit more thought and maybe a visit to the small RAAF museum here in Townsville.

[Sydhuey]

Hey Dennis, yes the mysteries of RAAF Catalina colours ??? The dark belly colour is most probably a thick coat of Lanolin the RAAF applied to the bellies of flying boats, it is glossy so looks quite dark in photo's, the photo of the right side looks light but the photo of the left looks darker, very rough matt dark surfaces trap light and look lighter in B&W photo's. Have a look at the AWM site at Catalina photo's that should give you a better idea, there is a photo  https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/NEA0165T/ this is A24-53 a sister machine delivered the same time as A24-52 and the Bu number one before A24-52, you can see the grey serials and fin flash and roundel quite clearly (compare to crash shots of A24-52) . These Cats  are "supposed to" be Black but as I said RAAF Cat colours are a nightmare about the only definites are the late PB2B1 (200 series) and PB2B2 (300 series) They were all repainted all over Black before delivery to Sqn's during the war.

[DennisTheBear]

Thanks for the link, Sydhuey! On reflection, and considering the quality of the midday light here in Townsville (good old Town-Town, or Brownsville, as it is sometimes refered to) I'm thinking I'll be going with a stylish black as the overall scheme.

 

DennisTheBear

[Fernando]

Hi, Dennis,

 

this old Eduard set might give you a hand with the interior

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/ED72242

 

Fernando

[DennisTheBear]

10 hours ago, Fernando said:

Hi, Dennis,

 

this old Eduard set might give you a hand with the interior

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/ED72242

 

Fernando

Thanks Fernando, but no AM for this one, especially from overseas. See first post.

 

DennisTheBear