Airfix 1/72 Phantom FG1

[Julien]

Gents please get this thread back on topic. I wont post this again.

 

Julien

[Albeback52]

On 24/11/2017 at 10:51 PM, rayprit said:

Does appear to be a bit of thread drift filtering in, it sounds like a lot of modellers already have the kit and are showing you their improvements to said kit..............as has been mentioned a couple of times..........wait and see

 

I am not an aircraft modeller, but have been watching this thread just to see where its going...............brings to mind "rivet counters"

Amen to that! There is unfortunately a popular trend to rip any new kit to shreds before it is even seen.I don't know about your own particular subject choices but, with aircraft it usually starts when the initial CADs are published.

 

I would hope that should the alleged issues prove to be non existent in the production kit that those quickest to criticise are the quickest to admit their error. 

Personally, I will gladly accept the Phantom kit regardless.

 

Allan

[Rabbit Leader]

Without trying to dip this thread back into the 'below the belt zone' - how many new tool Test Shots that have had 'suggested' errors were actually fixed by the time the full production kit run occured? Personally, I cannot think of any. I was under the impression that this Phantom kit was actually delayed due to weather related events in the Far East, rather than possible kit corrections being made.

 

Cheers.. Dave  

[stevehnz]

Aye, but do we know that for sure Dave, the problem with a thread like this is the uniformed speculation, fueled by an over abundance of hope to my mind. .   Airfix did fix the Cyclone engined Wildcat after problems were pointed out, I'm prepared to wait & hope they'll do likewise with this one, I've no other knowledge of Airfix & its processes & so I'm happy to leave further speculation to those better informed than me, & the others.

Steve.

[Mick4350]

29 minutes ago, Rabbit Leader said:

 I was under the impression that this Phantom kit was actually delayed due to weather related events in the Far East, rather than possible kit corrections being made.

 

Cheers.. Dave  

 

Looks as if I won't get a Christmas present from Airfix as it has been delayed yet again. I have only had a pre-order with my LHS since April this year.

[Plasto]

The Question is will Airfix modify the tooling to correct a relatively minor issue with the tooling to add in the detail that a lot of folk will not be too worried about.. If it remains Un-corrected then the aftermarket industry will likely step in and produce a correction set for modellers who want that detail on their build.

 

I wonder how many additional sales resulted from the Martlet kit being corrected before release.

 

I would think if the tooling is produced in China and then shipped to India for production if kits are due to be released in January then the tool is presumeably in India being run or the production run has finished if you factor in shipping and the Christmas holidays and then turnaround and logistics out of Hornby’s warehouse to retailers.

 

Altering the tool would be a costly exercise. 

[Rabbit Leader]

2 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Aye, but do we know that for sure Dave, the problem with a thread like this is the uniformed speculation, fueled by an over abundance of hope to my mind. .   Airfix did fix the Cyclone engined Wildcat after problems were pointed out, I'm prepared to wait & hope they'll do likewise with this one, I've no other knowledge of Airfix & its processes & so I'm happy to leave further speculation to those better informed than me, & the others.

Steve.

Thanks Steve,

I forgot about the Martlet - good on Airfix for adjusting this where required.

I was trying to find an example, so for those who are still hopeful of a 'correction', then perhaps it's still possible.  

 

Cheers.. Dave

[The Tomohawk Kid]

3 hours ago, Albeback52 said:

Amen to that! There is unfortunately a popular trend to rip any new kit to shreds before it is even seen.I don't know about your own particular subject choices but, with aircraft it usually starts when the initial CADs are published.

 

I would hope that should the alleged issues prove to be non existent in the production kit that those quickest to criticise are the quickest to admit their error. 

Personally, I will gladly accept the Phantom kit regardless.

 

Allan

 

Agreed, it is a worrying trend.

 

Thomo.

[sniperUK]

Spoiler

 

The Phantom and the Sea Fury are both delayed due to the cyclone in the far east, the container the toolings were in was damaged (toolings are fine) and had to be unloaded checked ,reloaded then put on a later ship. This is direct from the horses mouth on Thursday (I assist with a bit of research for Corgi AA and occasionally Airfix).

Edited November 27, 2017 by sniperUK

[Laurent]

2 hours ago, The Tomohawk Kid said:

 

Agreed, it is a worrying trend.

 

Thomo.

There's another trend that emerged in reaction, the "shut up and build" trend were people silence nitpickers/rivet counters when they dare post a critique message even if it's justified. If the nitpicker/rivet counter is able to provide a proper argumentation to back his words, he can help out the producer during the design of the kit (if the producer accepts to listen of course). The "shut up and build" guy can't.

[rayprit]

if, as has been suggested, the tooling was done in China and the tool is now in India, those with a knowledge of toolmaking will know its probably past the rectification point as to add missing detail, it would have to return to China for modification.  More speculation, or just plain honest truth.  It may have been prohibative in cost or not pracrical in design terms to put a smale indentation here or a dent their, may interfere with another process of mould making, interfere with a radius or result in warpage of a certain part.....The parts you refer to needing attention may well have been pointed out, but perhaps the toolmakers also pointed out a flaw that if by putting that particular feature on the tool/mold it may affect another part of the tool...............both halves of the tool have to be corrected.

 

Its basically WYSIWYG - What You See Is What You Get..............to me, a blemish here and a dent their will not detere me from buying 1 or 2 of them, the average modeller will not know about the odd missing detail, those capable I am sure will soon put right what they consider to be missing with the abundance of after market detail sets about to hit the market.  But to the average modeller, it wont make a difference.  What I have seen of the kit(Full feature in Decembers Airfix mag)it hits the mark and is spot on .......

[Plasto]

Does the Airfix design team design the mould tool or just the product that requires moulding?

[The Tomohawk Kid]

7 hours ago, Laurent said:

There's another trend that emerged in reaction, the "shut up and build" trend were people silence nitpickers/rivet counters when they dare post a critique message even if it's justified. If the nitpicker/rivet counter is able to provide a proper argumentation to back his words, he can help out the producer during the design of the kit (if the producer accepts to listen of course). The "shut up and build" guy can't.

That’s fine as long as one has styrene in hand. Otherwise it’s commenting from an uniformed position.

 

Thomo.

[Dave Fleming]

12 minutes ago, The Tomohawk Kid said:

That’s fine as long as one has styrene in hand. Otherwise it’s commenting from an uniformed position.

 

Thomo.

 

Disagree, it’s perfectly possible to spot potential errors on CAD if you are informed about the subject. I know one instance recently where I spotted an error, informed the manufacturer through a mutual contact, and that was corrected before the tooling was cut.

[Tbolt]

16 hours ago, Rabbit Leader said:

Without trying to dip this thread back into the 'below the belt zone' - how many new tool Test Shots that have had 'suggested' errors were actually fixed by the time the full production kit run occured? Personally, I cannot think of any. I was under the impression that this Phantom kit was actually delayed due to weather related events in the Far East, rather than possible kit corrections being made.

 

Cheers.. Dave  

Eduard' s 1/48th scale Bf 109G-6 - the test shots they showed had several obvious errors, mainly missing surface details that got fixed before release. Of course the big problems were still there. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Tbolt

[Tbolt]

1 hour ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

Disagree, it’s perfectly possible to spot potential errors on CAD if you are informed about the subject. I know one instance recently where I spotted an error, informed the manufacturer through a mutual contact, and that was corrected before the tooling was cut.

Exactly and I'm sure partly why companies like AMK and Tan Models post CAD' s on sites like this as any errors they make have a chance of getting caught.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Tbolt

[ICMF]

1 hour ago, The Tomohawk Kid said:

That’s fine as long as one has styrene in hand. Otherwise it’s commenting from an uniformed position.

 

Thomo.

Explain to me how having a publicly released product in hand before commenting on potential errors "can help out the producer during the design of the kit".

 

[Plasto]

5 hours ago, Tbolt said:

Exactly and I'm sure partly why companies like AMK and Tan Models post CAD' s on sites like this as any errors they make have a chance of getting caught.

AMK’s and Tan Model Customer base might be a bit different to Airfix’s.

 

A Product from them is reasonably going to sell primarily to enthusiast modellers the products are bought from specialist retailers. Airfix sell via that channel as well but also sell to a much diverse channel and end user base. 

 

So so I might see an Airfix Phantom kit for sale in a toy shop or in time Aldi. It’s unlikely that I’ll see an AMK MiG 31 in that channel.

 

So while it’s important for manufacturers who are aiming to supply the specialist channel to ensure they get their product as accurate as is practical as that’s what  enthusiast modellers demand. 

 

The demands from a more diverse channel might be less about accuracy and more about ease of build and shelf appeal of the boxes and RRP and retailer margin. 

 

I think if I was trying to satisfy hardened modellers with a product that was going to be consumed mainly by them I’d go all out to ensure every facet of the kit was a perfect as possible given the limitations of the scale of the kit I was producing. Id look to co create with my purchaser base, I’d get great box art done and use decals from a trusted supplier. I’d probably look to maximise margin and the RRP would reflect the investment I’d put into the tooling in getting everything perfect.

 

If I was more mainstream with a diverse sales channel with RRP and retailer margin considerations I might do things differently...

 

Cheers

Plasto

[Tbolt]

3 hours ago, Plasto said:

AMK’s and Tan Model Customer base might be a bit different to Airfix’s.

 

A Product from them is reasonably going to sell primarily to enthusiast modellers the products are bought from specialist retailers. Airfix sell via that channel as well but also sell to a much diverse channel and end user base. 

 

So so I might see an Airfix Phantom kit for sale in a toy shop or in time Aldi. It’s unlikely that I’ll see an AMK MiG 31 in that channel.

 

So while it’s important for manufacturers who are aiming to supply the specialist channel to ensure they get their product as accurate as is practical as that’s what  enthusiast modellers demand. 

 

The demands from a more diverse channel might be less about accuracy and more about ease of build and shelf appeal of the boxes and RRP and retailer margin. 

 

I think if I was trying to satisfy hardened modellers with a product that was going to be consumed mainly by them I’d go all out to ensure every facet of the kit was a perfect as possible given the limitations of the scale of the kit I was producing. Id look to co create with my purchaser base, I’d get great box art done and use decals from a trusted supplier. I’d probably look to maximise margin and the RRP would reflect the investment I’d put into the tooling in getting everything perfect.

 

If I was more mainstream with a diverse sales channel with RRP and retailer margin considerations I might do things differently...

 

Cheers

Plasto

But thats the thing if Airfix don't cater enough for the enthusiast they might struggle to survive.

 

Several years back when they bought out their new Spitfire it was a pretty poor effort because they didn't seem that interested in the enthusiast market but luckily the company got a new owner and their kits started to improve drastically.

 

All they need now is a little refinement and they will keep 99% of potential customers happy.

[gavingav1]

On 11/27/2017 at 5:17 AM, Rabbit Leader said:

Without trying to dip this thread back into the 'below the belt zone' - how many new tool Test Shots that have had 'suggested' errors were actually fixed by the time the full production kit run occured? Personally, I cannot think of any. I was under the impression that this Phantom kit was actually delayed due to weather related events in the Far East, rather than possible kit corrections being made.

 

Cheers.. Dave  

Just because you cant think of any does not mean they don't exist, the airfix 1/48th p-40 received many changes after the cad's were posted and so did the airfix martlet and the modelcollect b-2 stealth bomber to mane just 3 but there are many other examples were products have been altered after initial cad has been released .

[The Tomohawk Kid]

13 minutes ago, gavingav said:

Just because you cant think of any does not mean they don't exist, the airfix 1/48th p-40 received many changes after the cad's were posted and so did the airfix martlet and the modelcollect b-2 stealth bomber to mane just 3 but there are many other examples were products have been altered after initial cad has been released .

You have answered a different question.

 

The CAD's perhaps because that is almost a zero cost change a they only exist in cyber space, but the test shots? I think not.

 

Thomo.

[Tbolt]

2 hours ago, gavingav said:

Just because you cant think of any does not mean they don't exist, the airfix 1/48th p-40 received many changes after the cad's were posted and so did the airfix martlet and the modelcollect b-2 stealth bomber to mane just 3 but there are many other examples were products have been altered after initial cad has been released .

CAD plenty of times but after first test, shot, not so much but does happen.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Tbolt

[Plasto]

2 hours ago, Tbolt said:

But thats the thing if Airfix don't cater enough for the enthusiast they might struggle to survive.

 

There is plenty of evidence to suggest Airfix cater for the enthusiast. The 1/48 Walrus being a good example. 

 

We could reasonably ponder what  ‘enough’ might mean..

 

One definition might be several new tool releases per year in a variety of popular scales.

 

Another might be retooling a kit because it has some missing vents.

 

Which is reasonable is another useful debate we could have.

 

My personal view is Airfix do really well balancing out ‘our’ wants needs and desires as enthusiasts and the more simplistic needs of entrants to the hobby and casual modellers in numerous interesting releases over the course of the year.

 

 

 

 

[PhantomBigStu]

seem to have appeared on ebayuk, despite not being shown for release till after the new year

[shatters]

1 minute ago, PhantomBigStu said:

seem to have appeared on ebayuk, despite not being shown for release till after the new year

Very strange, one seller offering delivery by 6th December, had to go on airfix site just to check it hadn't been released.

 

 

Phil