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Roy vd M.

Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

3,390 posts in this topic

I made measures to determine the modif of situation of the U reversed tank: 20 mm forward, 10 mm higher:

 

5sfL3l.png

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Dear Robin,

I fully agree with you about the big tank, it must be 10 mm higher. But are you sure the little one must be increased too? how can you be sure?

About the big one, until we got the photo 28, we did not have any photo showing it. Now, with this photo Roy brought us recently, we can say that sure, it is too low. But the little one?

Thank you for your reply, and again, congrats for your good eyes and your nice presentation.

 

Olivier

 

P.S: sorry, I took the liberty to post your 001 photo (good idea, to number your photos like that!) with my labels on it, it was for my question to be very clear...

 

0eC5sB.png

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Posted (edited)

Dear Olivier as far as I can see the smaller tank lies behind the frame rail and seems to be parallel and slanted . I guess , it´s the tank for the clutch ( it is indeed an oil clutch ) and so it could make sense it´s slanted . On drawing 2 we can see this tank from the top-view , but on the side-view only thin and interrupted lines can be seen

behind the frame´s  rail .The bigger tank seems to be for the support of the engine .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited by Hannes
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Posted (edited)

Dear all,

I don't know wether or not the tanks were higher or maybe had a complete different shape and/or location. The reversed U pipe might as well been much higher...instead of the tank.

The kit's version is the drawing 2 version, but since the ( at least the bare aluminium pre race) car had it's U pipe higher and more forward...anything is possible.

Only thing we know...the kit (drawing 2) is wrong. Without any good drawings, documents or photo's we don't know what's right.

I happily embrace the artistic freedom that comes with lack of information.:D

 

Cheers,

 

Robin

 

 

Edited by Robin Lous
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Dear Robin,

 

Exactly my thoughts word for word from the beginning.

Bless your heart, your decision making and of course your magnificent execution and work.

 

Sam

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As mentioned above, the stand has been increased a lot in height (10 mm) and the reversed U has been moved forward (nearly 20 mm). At this time, the U is just placed without cement. Rivets are to be done on the rings around the U and the 107D part, that had to be moved too:

 

ZqjZyH.jpg

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15 hours ago, Robin Lous said:

 

Dear all,

I don't know wether or not the tanks were higher or maybe had a complete different shape and/or location. The reversed U pipe might as well been much higher...instead of the tank.

 

Dear Robin,

I don't think the U was higher. Look at the Drawing 2 (side view). If indeed the U is more backward than on photo 28, it is the stand and not the U that is much higher. The difference of location of the U (backwards) is one of the several evolutions of the car, like the steering wheel, the tail etc.

I would like to know precisely what was the role of this tank. Does someone know?

I did not find such a stuff on another cockpit car. Does someone ever saw that?

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Posted (edited)

Dear Olivier , as you can read in my post above imho the greater tank had the duty to provide the engine with engine oil  , the smaller tank to provide the clutch with clutch oil . Hannes

Edited by Hannes
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Posted (edited)

Dear Olivier , in my opinion these outer tanks main duty was to cool down the temperature of the liquids . The duty for clutch oil for instance is to cool down the rings and plates inside this kind of clutch .

The engine always tended to be overheated so besides a greater radiator an good engine  oil cooling system was required .imho. Don´t forget , the quality of the oil at that time cannot be compared with today´s high performance oils .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited by Hannes
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Posted (edited)

Some of the edge rivets had to be made again because of the sanding that erased them partially or totally. These ones were made with 1 mm Punch and die, 0,20 mm thick acetate foil.

The rings around 33E and 107 D were made with 0,13 mm thick plastic card (4 mm die for the biggest ones). The very little rivets on rings are 0,5 mm diameter and made from 0,05 mm thick alu foil. A  little sanding is still necessary to get a neater surface, even if I am not looking for a too smooth and perfect aspect.

 

CJhQic.jpg

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Dear Olivier , how do you punch out these tiny rivets from an alu foil ? Do you use an injection needle ? And how do you get out the rivets from that needle ? A tiny rod perhaps ?

Very fine and impressive work !  Hannes

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Hi guys!

 

Apologies for my absence lately...but with the onset of spring, much of my time has been spent away from the bench:(.

Anyway, I've just had a good catch-up on proceedings and I must say WOW!! The emergence of photo 28 really is a blessing from above...good find!

Hannes and Olivier.....your diligence and hard work is truly paying off; your builds look incredible lads, I can't wait to see more!:D


Welcome back VT....Thanks for letting me know about the tyres mate....there's still no rush.

 

Lastly, to our newbie Robin....welcome to the madness matey!:D

 

Cheers, H

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Posted (edited)

Dear Harvey , it´s good to hear you again ! This new photo 28 really was a great find . If you intend to build your frame from scratch , this photo seems to be a better base as drawing 2 imho.

Why ? In my opinion the frame for the successor was slightly altered too compared with the predecessor. Because there are new  constructions on both ends of the frame ( different radiator case and different tail´s end ) the frame was altered regarding it´s lenght at these places and maybe it´s shape too ( end ) imho.

And in my opinion the distance between the rails and the curve seen from the top-view also seems to be altered on drawing 2 . The distance  should be about 2-3 mm wider at the front and more close together at the end of the frame.imho.

That´s what I´m doing now: I cut off both ends of the rear  frame and will elongate them a bit and shorten the distance so the bodywork will be parallel with the rails.For that reason I recommend to alter the bodywork first before constructing the frame .

On drawing 2 no triangular support constructions for the last cross-beam can be seen anymore ( weight reduction )

In my opinion they were not necessary anymore because the rails distance was widened and the cross-beam was more stabilized by that measure .

Regarding the tail´s end : As it seems , photo 3 is correct. It´s relatively short due the lenght of the frame .

So Olivier was right and I was wrong to believe it to be just an foresighting effect .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited by Hannes
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Posted (edited)

Thanks for the warm welcome Harvey,

 

I'm now working on the engine...

 

806-005_zpsrmi3e2no.jpg

 

Very pleased with the wonderful turned aluminium spark plugs from RB Motion ( http://www.rbmotion.com/). 

The kit's spark plugs are...let's say...underwhelming.

Airbrushed with the engine block, painted the insulators cream white and gave it a lick of gloss varnish.

I've seen the pink insulators on some models, but after a Google search for old spark plugs I think this is a safe choise.

Most plugs used during the twenties were a slightly shorter, but...ok. This is good enough for me...at least it's an improvement.

 

For the engine I used a whole range of metalic paints. Not sure about the colour of the pipes. Brass or copper...I don't know.

 

I replaced most of the bolt heads and painted them with a steel colour (the few very large drain bolts brass).

 

Edit: question...what's the best colour for parts 30e and 84c? Steel? brass? copper? I really have no idea what's best:think:

Thanks guys!

 

More soon,

 

Robin

 

 

 

Edited by Robin Lous
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5 hours ago, Hannes said:

Dear Olivier , how do you punch out these tiny rivets from an alu foil ? Do you use an injection needle ? And how do you get out the rivets from that needle ? A tiny rod perhaps ?

Very fine and impressive work

Dear Hannes,

thank you for your compliments. I use Punch and die from RP Toolz. The smallest size is 0,5 mm. The 0,05 mm thick alu foil was brought at Cultura, it is a german product. But you can also use the alu from the round alu seal of a plastic bottle of milk, fe.

To cement the tiny rivet, I use the tip of a triangular blade to catch it, and 0,4 mm steal rod to place a very little drop where the rivet is to place.

 

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Posted (edited)

Dear Olivier , thanks for the information ! And dear Robin these parts are connected with the radiator and - unlike most of the tubes we see on the engine  - existed not for oil,but for water supply. I would use the same material color like the radiator frame : brass. Of course copper tubes are a possible variation too .

I don´t think they were made out of alu and iron / steel would cause corrosion.

Many greetings !  Hannes         -

Edited by Hannes
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Thanks Hannes!

I think I do them copper, because of the shape they were easier to make from copper I guess.

 

While cleaning up parts for the engine I had doubts about the gear stick. After some research (Delage gear stick) I'll modify the stick like this....

gearstick_zpsmczojgmx.jpg

The leather ball makes little sense and the kit's knob is perhaps a bit too small.

What do you guys think?

 

Cheers,

 

Robin

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Dear Robin , in my opinion the master model shows the correct solution ( model 2 ) It seems to be polished steel to avoid friction when changing gears .  Hannes

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Posted (edited)

@Robin Lous in case you want to base yourself on the Delage, here's the best picture of the gearstick I found in my own collection. It seems your drawing is quite correct (mind the double nut), but I guess it's never a bad thing to have more reference material. 

 

33173164610_fd87d7e852_c.jpg 

Edited by Roy vd M.
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IMG_3432_zpsynidqegp.jpg

 

Now, the reversed U is at the good height and the good location on my build:

2017-03-20%20%2019.21.11_zpsojegaquq.png

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15 hours ago, Hannes said:

Regarding the tail´s end : As it seems , photo 3 is correct. It´s relatively short due the lenght of the frame .

So Olivier was right and I was wrong to believe it to be just an foresighting effect .

Dear Hannes,

I am happy to see we fully agree on this important point now. So, now, we are on the same wavelenght at nearly 100%!

Each one of us has all been right or wrong at a moment or another. The only thing that matters is that we are closer and closer from truth.

About that, many thanks to you, Robin for your assumption about the gear stick, very interesting, and to Roy for your great photo of the Delage gear stick.

I was about to make a leather ball, and you both convinced me it is probably not the good choice.

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I have an appointment with Paolo Rigero of the Centro Storico to look at the archives on the 13 april at 9h30. It will be closed on the 14.

Sébastien Faures had replied my last night, giving me 2 contacts at the Centro, but both have left the Centro. I have called and could speak with Paolo, who, very kindly, gave me this rdv. It was an advantage for me to speak (a little) italian.

If one of you could find me at the Centro on that day, it would be a pleasure for me to meet him. 

Now I have this rdv, I am gonna book my hotel.

All the best

Olivier

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I am flabbergasted... 

 

I'll await your visit and, afterwards, will contact Centro Storico myself about why they have been keeping me waiting for four months now and there is no problem to have you enter the archive after one mail. I am equally astounded as happy for you Olivier. I wish you luck, hopefully you will find stuff there.

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