Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I am very glad of my poster's idea. You can compare very easily and instantly the different pictures. For example, I have been improving still a bit my seat fairing (as difficult to shape as the main one...) and looking the different views is very helpful.

The same to check after Hannes comment on slanted line. 

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , it´s even better if you print out the photos in the same size as your model ( in DIN - A 3 , twice the size as your copies )  That´s very useful especially regarding our new side-view photo!

The wheelbase should be the most important issue when doing this .

It also gave me the opportunity to check out the scale I´m working with. It´s exactly 1: 11 ! In this scale wheels and tyres have very good alignements , same goes for many other parts of the kit .

The wheelbase is almost 22 cm long , so the overall lenght compared with an exact 1 : 12 -model differs about 20 mm.

It´s not too much if you compare it with the additional efforts required for a scale reduction imho .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited February 27, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

3 hours ago, Hannes said:

it´s even better if you print out the photos in the same size as your model ( in DIN - A 3 , twice the size as your copies ) 

Of course, but I don't have a printer that accepts the a3 size. And the drawback is that my posters would begin to take a lot of room! The main goal of these posters is to make instantaneous comparisons between docs.

But for the most important docs, and especially photo 28, I think I will follow your hint and go to a stationery that will be able to make A3 size impression.

The problem of changing the scale is that for example the body should be enlarged, it was ever not exactly wide enough at 1/12. I don't think I will, just modifying the transmission arms lenghts, because itb would mean too many changes.

Personally, my scale is precisely 1/1125, because it is with this scale that I get good dimensions for wheels, bonnets and tail, but we can have slightly different measures.

 

All the best

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I have changed my mind about applying my red over the True Metal Silver. Some tests have shown there are important risks to remove some parts of red paint removing masking tape that will be necessary, in particular to paint the "15" number. So, a thin primer coat will be applied under the red. Maybe, if tests are good, I will apply on this primer a coat of metallic paint before applying the red.

About that problem of masking tape, my experience is that the Tamiya one is not the best to avoid this problem of removing paint. Its tack is not low enough. I prefer  the Tesa professional Precision Mask, less expensive and with a lower tack. But even with this one, there were risks with my red paint. Pity, I liked very much the metallic effect of True Metal under the red.

[Hannes]

After studying and comparing our new photo 28  my sum total is as follows :This photo is very  useful and also means a great step into the right direction.

But you should be cautious not to transfer everything you measure to your model imho . Especially at it´s borders there seem to be some minor differences compared with other photos .

In my opinion the tail´s end , the topline of the radiator case and the height of the fairing should be only seen in combination with other informations .

The error margins in these regions are about 1-2 mm imho .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited February 28, 2017 by Hannes

[sharknose156]

Imho and i may be wrong but i think both Olivier and Hannes you are treating the pictures as if they were taken on the same race week end ?

 

Imho pics 1.a, 1.aa,  2 and 28 are pictures of the car before it was painted red mezning in bare aluminium and with subtle differences on the bodywork. 

Even on  pic 28  the fairing seems a bit dented to me.

 

In any case this could explain your continous struglle with measurments

 

Personally i will reproduce the car in aluminium color representing my tribute to the fabulous prototype format with so many innovations and a small nod to the engineers 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Dear Sam,

it is a long time since I said on the thread (maybe even on the Gangshow) the car was not yet painted on photos 1 , 2 and 3.

Like you, I have been wondering if I would not leave the car bare metal, before finally making the decision to paint it red, representing the car the day of the race, with its number 15 on it.

But I think it's a good idea to leave it bare metal, as it was when the photos 1,2 3 (and 28!) were made.

You probably noticed that the windscreen was missing on these photos. So, you would avoid this problem...

Edited March 1, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

Dear Sam ,not a single photo of the unpainted car´s left side exists ( at least in our collection ) so it just does not make too much sense to represent dents and flaws as we can see on the right side .

We also don´t know for 100 per cent ,when these 3 slits on the left side were cut in the aluminium body or before or after the paintwork .

Of course it´s an very interesting undertake to represent the unpainted car but at least one good photo of the left side would be very helpful for that .

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

The body shape was too low at the seat fairing and rear part of cockpit left side level. I could have just added material on it but I would have got a very thick edge of the rear part of the cockpit - which will be visible -, very difficult to decrease by the inside...

 

 

 

 

That's why I have preferred cut all that area:

 

 

then cemented inside the body with drops of thick cyano 0,3 mm alu foil, as stands:

 

 

then the part that I had cut has been recemented on alu stands, checking that the height was good now:

 

 

The big gaps between that part and the body were first filled with Revotek light cured resin, avoiding this resin to fill the gaps up to the plastic level, because this resin is much harder than plastic and so difficult to sand:

 

Mr Surfacer was used to fill the most superficial part of the gaps. It is a much tender material, easy to sand:

 

 

Now, the front part of the tail has the good height, with good relations with the seat fairing, like on the real car. The same for the rear part of the cockpit left side, that was too low and that is good now. Notice that I have used flowable resin LC to reproduce the bending of the fairing's edge right side. This bending disappears then, so I just did it on right side:

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
add

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier now everybody can see : You are a very good surgeon !  I have to alter my frame a bit too at it´s frontal end and because these are metal parts it´s always a challenge to get firm connections and good adjustments . I also had to alter some regions of my bodywork , but there´s light on the horizon ! I guess the times for measurements and alterings  will be almost over soon , so the real construction could start !  Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited March 1, 2017 by Hannes

[Roy vd M.]

What a mess you made  

 

(Will be better after a layer of paint I hope)

 

By the way guys, as we're planning to visit Italy for the summer holidays I contacted Centro Storico yet again. Still, no decision from legal department yet. Judging from their provisional answer I have the feeling they are taking this repeated request, for the first time strongly criticizing Italeri, a bit more seriously. 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

1 hour ago, Roy vd M. said:

What a mess you made  

As I said to Sharknose on PM, if you are not ready to live with such a mess, if you don't like taking risks, putting yourself in danger, if you are not very patient, if you want a quite fast result, forget the idea to build this amazing car as accurately as possible. But if you are not afraid of cutting, carving, adding, filling, sanding, removing, detailing, respoking, doing and redoing, then:

1) you will have a lot of fun

2) you will take advantage of all our experience, all our mistakes and corrections to Hannes and me, you will earn time compared with us and I hope our topics will help you to get the result you dream to have.

I ever speak as if my model was over, while it is far from being so, but my will is stronger than never. 

And I agree  with Hannes to say this photo 28 is definitely the doc we missed to get the best, even if it must be compared with the other ones, of course.

I would like to read the doc "will the Fiat return" and I don't find it.

If someone of you could post it on the thread, i would appreciate.

All the best

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[sharknose156]

8 hours ago, Hannes said:

Of course it´s an very interesting undertake to represent the unpainted car but at least one good photo of the left side would be very helpful for that .

 

Dear Hannes,

 

Without wanting to contradict you, i don't see any pictures of both sides and all angles, that were realistically or probably taken during the same session and within minutes, when it was painted red either.  So we all have to go forward anyway and so be it. So what ...

 

My humble intention is to satisfy myself with what is available. As for the rest, a little free license is inevitable. So be it.

 

I very much like the car without red paint. It is a raw monster.  Unfinished and unpolished.  Representing so many dreams and expectations for all involved, from the engineers - even perhaps the accountants -  to the apprentice mechanics, even the tifosis.

 

 

In no. 28, it probably went for a few laps and God knows what happened... spinning and hitting a few tree branches, or the fairing was too frail and was hit by some rocks from another car on track, or whatever .....and so the car was a bit damaged here and there a bit. I don't need more pictures for that.

 

Nobody will ever ( until proven otherwise)  be able to represent the car as it was exactly from all angles in any given minute.

 

This is why i don't understand - but respect - both your obsessions, yours and Olivier's and you back and forth for 1 mm on the Bordino tip betting on old pictures, when it was demonstrated on and on - and lastly by Roy's photos from the show... that all is relative to where the camera's lense was and what type it was.

 

Up to this date not enough data is available.

 

Halas.

 

 

[sharknose156]

5 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Now, the front part of the tail has the good height,

 

 

Masterful work, very well done and lesson taken. Thank you.

[Roy vd M.]

35 minutes ago, sharknose156 said:

Without wanting to contradict you, i don't see any pictures of both sides and all angles, that were realistically or probably taken during the same session and within minutes, when it was painted red either.

 

That's exactly the thing I thought when I read Hannes' remark re. photos of the left side. 

 

For example there are no photos of the car's bottom, or the interior... If there is ANY place where dents and other damage spots are to be expected, it's the car's bottom. That doesn't mean it's forbidden to freely interpret what it could have looked like. 

[NickD]

Olivier, Hannes

 

"1) you will have a lot of fun " - There were many times in the last few months when I feared this was not true; particularly when you chopped it in half - again! And as you and Hannes argued about a mm here or there

 

I would have found a number of things to do with such a frustrating project but I would not have got as far as you. In fact as far as both you and Hannes have gone.

 

Well done to you both - long may the fun continue.

 

 

 

Nick

Edited March 1, 2017 by NickD

[Hannes]

It´s always a good sign if there are different approaches . And of course I respect the philosophy that´s the base for every interpretation..

And I guess , if everything about this car was already known some realistic models or kits already would exist. Seen from that point of view it´s not a disadvantage if there are still white spots .

It´s a good training for fantasy and creativity . And we know much more as the Protar designers or the creator of the master model .

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

11 hours ago, NickD said:

"1) you will have a lot of fun " - There were many times in the last few months when I feared this was not true; particularly when you chopped it in half - again! And as you and Hannes argued about a mm here or there

You're right to recall that, Nick, there were also many difficult moments. But with such an amazing challenge, it is absolutely normal. And if you get finally the result, the satisfaction is commensurate with the efforts you made.

And today, when I see my body compared with the real one, it is worth the efforts.

I look forward finishing the last details to be able to paint again my bodywork.

It won't be until next week-end because I will be in Paris tomorrow and friday.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

1 hour ago, sharknose156 said:

 

 

Masterful work, very well done and lesson taken. Thank you.

Thank you Sam (and all).

I wanted to explain that choice (difficult) to cut one more time my body. Some of you could think I did these cuttings by pleasure, but not at all, it is just that, on reflection, it was imho the best solution. But you really will have to"shrink the shrimp" () when you build the model if you want to get the good shape.

P.S: I did not understand Hannes comment about your idea of leaving the car unpainted. I think it may be great and very original. And if one day, we meet each other with our builds, it will be a "special" version. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , all I wanted to say was : We don´t have a photo of the left side  which shows the car before it was painted and altered for the race . As we can see on photo 8 there was a dent on the bordino tip .

We don´t know if this dent already existed when the car was not yet painted . Were the three slits already made at the test drives or later ?

Of course  it´s a great idea of Sam to show the pre-race car .And I really  didn´t mean to vote against this undertake . I just wanted to say , it could be helpful for his project if we had a photo of the car´s left side  that shows it´s pre-race appearance.

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Ok Hannes, no problem, but what do you mean with this "dent on Bordino tip"?

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , on photo 8 B we can see this dent over the last two louvres . On photo 8 A it was a bit retouched .Maybe photos of the pre-race car´´s left side  don´´t exist due this ugly dent ?

Just joking... Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I had used for my fairing's edge 1 mm masking tape. An accurate look shows (see enlargement below) 1 mm is too large. I will use 0,7 mm masking tape instead of 1 mm to reproduce this thin foil, on which are very small rivets. I used my transposition technique to check that. The thinnest black line was transposed from the photo 28.

 

 

[Roy vd M.]

There's reason to believe Olivier was actually right to consider Photo 28 as the first one. Of all the portfolio we have collected (except maybe Photo 22), it may well be the first photo taken. 

 

Photo 28:

 

 

Photo 2: 

 

 

Photo 3:

 

 

Photo 1:

 

 

Now where are 1613 and 1618?  

[Roy vd M.]

It seems Fiat used this photo count throughout its models. 

 

Fiat 512 Landaulet (1926), picture no. 1168:

 

 

(Courtesy Wikipedia Commons)

 

Fiat 507 (1926), picture no. 1443: 

 

(Copyright Jonywheels, educational purposes only, picture will be deleted upon first request)

 

Who else but Fiat (Centro Storico) could have the original high resolution versions of 1614, 1615, 1616 and 1617?