NickD Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Olivier, Dear friend, I fear you are wrong. I was pretty convinced on page 47 or whatever that the edges are strengthened with wire. VT's plate example round there somewhere shows the principle. The reason, explained there, was that thin edges are sharpe and split. Sometimes it is possible to just fold the edge over to give double thickness. The alternative is to wrap the metal round a wire. That is what I and the others think happens here. It is not a democracy, it is about analysis and balance of probabilities. Not belief but persuasion. The same with the tail. My shape may not be right but I know with absolute certainty from the work I have had to do that the tail on Photo3 is absolutely wrong. On a more positive note, I think the body is looking great. I applaud the way you have managed to hide all the abuse it is suffered. Regards Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Dear Olivier You also can see from outside of the fairing that this is a wrapped-in wire ! Look at photo 2 and you will see the marks from outside too . And regarding photo 3 : I told you to look at the upper part ( over the steering wheel ) to see the bulge because where your arrow points there´s only a top view of that bulge .Maseratis and Delages may have different strenghtening systems , but our 806 has wrapped - in wires .And that´s very important for the optical issue. Regarding Bordino´s tip : These sheets (red line ) are just an elongation of the bottom panel and I already made them out of brass sheet . The lenght of the rear´s end is also a result of the frame´s lenght . I recommended to elongate the frame after the 4 mounting points and not to shorten the frame before these points . Photo 3 is no contradiction at all with my own solution , because the foresighting effect shortens the tail only in an optical way . So better care about the frame´s dimension first and you will get an explanation why the end looks so short . It´s also a question how high the tail´s end really is and how much the louvres have an optical effect . So my advice remains the same : If you elongate the frame to it´s required lenght it´s logical,that the end seems to be shorter . How long it is in reality you can see on photos 4 and 8 (not 9 , sorry ) Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) Dear Nick, as I just explained to Olivier , Photo 3 seems to be correct in that region. My tail´s end is about 3 cm away from the frame´s end and it still seems to be in accordance with the other parts of the car like wheels and so on and also with photo 3 ! .It´s a combination of an foresighting effect and a wrong height of the whole Bordino tip of the kit .And the whole rear behind the seat is too low and has an wrong angle and wrong cross-sections imho I had to rework my whole body in a massive way and it took a long time , till I found my solution which now is very close to truth imho .If you take the kit´s body and only make some small alterings , you will never get a convincing result! I dont know , how many tons of filler was required to alter my bodywork !But the Protar / Italeri-solution is wrong,wrong,wrong ! Many greetings ! Hannes Edited February 23, 2017 by Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Hannes, Your eyes are more perceptive than mine. I haave taken a more mechanical approach. Wheels should be round. The most lefthand wheel is not round. The image appears to be distorted. This is consistent with the other studio shots. The tail overlaps the wheel so the tail is similarly compressed. The only photo that seems to be remotely right is photo 4. So my lines follow photo 4. When projected on photo 3 they are longer than the photo suggests which would be consistent with the tail being compressed by the image. To me this seems consistent. Also being mechanical, I have not interpreted anything. Even if photo 4 is wrong. Photo 3 is still not right. It is compressed in the critical region. Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I've just realised the rear wheels in photo 4 are about 15mm higher than in photo 3. Bordino and fuel probably provided a significant change in the mass. Maybe enough to account for the difference in ride height. The wheels also seem to be a bit bigger - 28.9" in fact. I still need to check things through and may still find a flaw. I will post some better information tomorrow hopefully. Nck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Rather disappointingly there are already more different photos of the Mercedes-Benz F1 W08 that was released today than we have ever found of the 806 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Dear Nick , maybe it´s a bit compresed but not so much. I will make some pics of that region when I´m done with filing, sanding and so on . The main reason it looks so short lies within the wrong proportions of the rear part and the necessary elongation of the frame behind the central 4 mounting points imho.. If the frame is longer , the tail seems to be shorter seen from that view . It´s also a maatter how pointed the Bordino tip is in reality .If it´s a result of two gentle curves which meet at the tip it looks different as there were two aslmost straight lines which meet at the tip ( top-view). My rear end has a good alignement with both photos 4 and 8 and also drawing 2. So I think , I´m on the right way . Many greetings ! Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Dear Nick , the difference between a 806 without Bordino and gasoline and it´s starting weight is 240 kg.There´s a slight difference regarding the frame´s angle on photos 1 and 2 ! I always believed that´s the result of the driver´s weight. And same photos can also show different proportions ! I own 3 versions of photo 1. In one version the front wheel has a greater diameter as the rear wheel and on the other ( same ! ) photo it´s vice versa. I´m glad my nerves are stable enough or else I would need a psycho doc ! But I´ll stay calm because my results get better and so I´m optimistic ! Many greetings ! Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) Dear Hannes and Nick, I made an enlargement of photo 2. There is indeed a little portion (black curved line) where we can imagine there is a wire inside the sheet. It is much less obvious everywhere else IMHO. The metal may have been just turned (and rounded) a bit for the driver's protection. Sorry, definitely, I won't change that, except, as I said above, getting a more rounded edge here or there. About photo 3, Hannes, if I understand well, you who said recently that the frame lenght was definitely right on Drawing 2, now you think it is 4 mm too short in the tail portion... In this case, you may have a short final end like me. The question is: are you sure the tail portion (body and frame) is too short? I will try tomorrow to make a new comparison of my build with photo 4, that we all consider as a good reference. Whatever will be my result, I suggest to close these 2 debates now. Good night guys. Photo 3: the metal foil seems to me much too thin to imagine there is a wrapped-in wire... Let's leave that, I think we won't agree on that point and I want to go on, there is so much to do yet. Thank you Edited February 23, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Dear Olivier , drawing 2 is correct regarding the frame .But most important besides it´s overall lenght and the distance between frontal and rear wheels ( in exact 1:12 this is 20 cm ).are the other alignements seen from the central 4 mounting points . In 1:12 scale the kit´s frame needs to get elongated about 3,5 -4 mm behind those points and shortened at it´s frontal tip about 1,5-2 mm. Just print out a frame , that has exactly 20 cm distance between the axes , glue on a cardboard , cut it out and compare it with your own frame ( the 4 central mounting points must get overlayed.,not the beginning or the end ! That´s very important ! ) Now you see if the lenght is OK or if the mounting points at the frontal part have very ( ! ) good alignements . I said this already several times and I also want to close this topic now as the other pointless discussions because sometimes I feel like an idiot when repeating again and again . Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) Dear Hannes, first of all, I am far from thinking you are an idiot, of course. The problem is always the same: because of the difference of language and the lack of drawing and/ or photos, your explanations are too abstract for me. Fe, I don't see clearly what "4 mounting points" you speak about. I said above you should buy a Macbook, because you should, as I do, make comparisons, add labels, lines, arrows, that would be very helpful to follow your explanations. That said, as promised yesterday night, and because the photo 4 is considered as reliable about the lenght, including the tail part, I made this dry fit assembly with a comparison with photo 4, using my transposition lines technique, that does not forgive anything: My conclusions: - the seat fairing is too bulging. I must decrease it a bit on the upper part. - my tail lenght (from the cockpit to the tip) is a bit too short, about 3 mm. I will make a little adding at the tip bottom to win 1 mm and in the same time get a more vertical end. So, the "remaining error" will be only 2 mm, meaning 2,4 cm at 1:1 scale, acceptable. - the engine bonnet is imho 1 to 1,5 mm too short. It will need to be elongated a bit. - the same for the radiator case, about 1,5 mm - the rear wheel is much too big, even with the Protar tyre!! I have no solution for that, but it is IMHO the biggest problem I see on this comparison. - the steering column will be a bit shorter. So little corrections to do, but, all in all, it is not so bad, I prefer to see the glass as half full... I must admit I did not sleep very well, I worried a bit being more wrong than that after Hannes and Nick's warnings... All the best to "all" Olivier Edited February 24, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph add 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 Dear Olivier This is already great and from a long way. Also the paint job is lovely and IMHO the closest i have ever seen to the Italian red on the old-timers. so sleep in peace and be proud. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 Thank you Sam. It's good to read you. Thank you CC too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) I was very desappointed seeing my wheels were too big. I really don't see what to do with such a problem. I spent a lot of time with these wheels, and can't imagine not using them. And in the same time, on the last comparison photo, it is IMHO (as I ever said above) by far the biggest difference between my build and the real car on the photo 4. I would like to have your opinion about that... I am working on the other little errors but for this one, I don't know what to do... Edited February 24, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) Necessary corrections after my check of this morning. One step forward, one step backward... and no idea for the wheels, except maybe trying to decrease the tyre thickness, that would be delicate and long (you have to increase the deepness of the sculpture with care before grinding the tyres). A bit discouraged, I have been very far fighting against myself and against this so wrong kit, and when I see what is still to do... And I understand that some of you begin to be bored by a so slow progress... Edited February 24, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 13 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said: I must admit I did not sleep very well Sorry about that mate, not my intention at all. Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 Dear Olivier , I think , you know my opinion about that .The wheels are not the main problem imho. If you had taken photo 4 a instead of photo 4 you would have seen the situation of the frame before the bodywork . That´s the main problem imho .It really makes me sad : You are doing wonderful work as we all can see when looking at the bodywork . It´s outstanding ! If you would make the same efforts regarding fundamental problems as your detailling , this could be a magnificent model. Unfortunately you don´t listen to such advices like Nick or I gave to you and so you must find your own learning process .I´m convinced , you will build a wonderful model in the end but this won´t be easy. I had to make a lot of alterings in the last days and so I know about some difficulties and traps . First of all the fundamental construction must be OK , before even thinking about detailling ! Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) Dear Nick and Hannes, don't worry, if I slept badly, it is too because I had to take corticoîds for back pain, and this does not help to sleep. Hannes, if I did not follow your hints, it is because I couldn't understand what you meant, just with explanations, as I ever said above. I do many efforts and spend time not only on my build, but also on photos, labels, lines, arrows, so that the reader may understand clearly what is in my brain. I suppose you meant "instead of photo 3" in your last post. That said, I don't see very well how photo 4A, on which the frame is not visible, could be helpful for the frame. But the more I see my comparison of this morning, the more I feel the main error (even if all was not perfect) comes from the wheel size. That's what my eyes see. Pity, we had a dream team, with motivated guys, and most of them seem to have taken some distance with the thread, as if they felt bored by our many debates on this or that... I will try to go on despite all posting... Edited February 24, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 The size of your wheels is not a spectacular difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 It was photo 4 b I was talking about , sorry : And my English maybe is not that good but it should be sufficient to understand what I wanted to say . Besides that I also showed pics and drawings to make clear how to proceed with the fundamental construction when using the kit´s parts . Because there were no reactions at all regarding my " hints " (except Nick ) I guess I wasted my time.For the future I will focus on my own construction and will avoid to give advices which noone understands or does not want to understand . Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) Hannes, I apologize for my last post words not very kind, written in discouraged moments. If you have posted pics and drawings about what you meant, I did not see them. I will try to find them in the thread. My english is probably not better than yours, but it is obvious that things would be much more easy if: - we were speaking the same language - we did not have a busy pro activity explaining that sometimes, we read to fast what the other members write - we could talk and explain lively and not through computers All this, combinated with the extreme challenge that this model represents, explains many things. Sorry again, Hannes, if you can just tell me at what page are these pics and photos where you explain your ideas about the frame, I will take the time to study them. I need to do my own experience, that is true, and Nick and you were right about the Bordino tip on photo 3. It is indeed a bit different on photo 4, and I had to do the little corrections yesterday. That said, my yesterday's dry fit assembly shows imho that I was not so wrong. I can tell you making such comparisons with transpositions technique does not forgive anything. I know you can't use it because you don't have the stuff for that, but maybe you would notice errors too on your own build. I just need to be really convinced to modify my work. When you said the steering wheel screen was before and not behind the spokes, it first appeared wrong to me. Then, I saw you were right, and I modified it. The same for other aspects. I am not "not wanting to understand", but I need to be 100% convinced to modify what I have patiently done before. My reaction was also the result of my desappointment because of the way things have evolved on this thread. The first weeks were so exciting, I regret this time and some members are missing to me, because they have leaved us or are too busy with their own works or problems to be fully present and engaged as they were before. And each time I show my progress, you find something to correct. A bit discouraging sometimes... even if you are generally right. But I know your intentions are good, I am fighting with this build and against myself, because I would like it to go on faster, and, as I said above, it is each time one step forward, one step backward. Because you are on the same boat, you can understand what I mean... All the best Olivier P.S: I slept much better last night! Edited February 25, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, sharknose156 said: The size of your wheels is not a spectacular difference Sam, not spectacular but personally, I see a difference, on which I don't have any easy solution. So, I will leave them as they are. After all, it is maybe an optical illusion. My wheel was set as I could. No question for me to put any cement, even soft on it, because the respoked wheels are fragile. I must be reasonable and set limits. I think my build is at least 90% right (I hope 95%...) up to now. I love this red, thank you Sam to have pushed me in this good direction, that was confirmed imho by the article in "l'auto italiana. I think "fiammante rosso" sets very well to my red... Edited February 25, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted February 25, 2017 Author Share Posted February 25, 2017 Photo 28 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Dear Olivier ,I guess it´s normal we are both a bit tensed up.I was just angry about your ignoring of our good advices . I´ll try to explain from scratch : It´s about the proceeding when developing a new construction. I want to give you an example ; If I am modelling a human body , first of all the proportions need to be correct I won´t start detailling the head when the arms are too long or the legs too short or the whole appearance of that figure is not yet clear and convincing . But that´s exactly how you proceed imho ! You form a nice nose ,detailled eyes and so on . Now you step back and discover . Yes , the head itself is very nice , but it´s too small for the body and the rest of the proportions are not in a good relation. So what to do ? Of course you can cut off the head ,model a smaller body and hope , it will fit this time. I hope , you will understand what I wanted to say by that. If doing a construction like that , you should not care about details first , but about the fundamental issues . This also means , all important parts must get involved first and detailling can wait , till all problems are solved . I already explained how to construct the frame and how to make an assembly cradle .That´s the foundation . Next steps are bodywork and radiator case . Axes and wheels must get involved . The next important step are the bonnets .Engine and exhaust pipes must find their correct places and the parts under the pipes need to get adapted . The construction of both axes with correct distances is the next important step .Leaf springs dampers and suspension parts need to be constructed. Now the whole steering system needs to be reworked. If all of these works are done , you can start with detailling scratchbuiling and painting . If you do it step by step and start with detailling first , there will be more problems than you can see now. Nick and I want you prevent from getting frustrated . The wrong tyres should be seen by you as a warning shot ! Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) That´s phantastic , dear Roy ! Many thanks ! And it confirmes the current state of my work. Where the hell did you get this very important side-view from ? You are a genius ! Many greetings ! We all are very grateful ! Hannes Edited February 25, 2017 by Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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