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Roy vd M.

Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

1,521 posts in this topic

An enlargement on photo 9 shows that the steering wheel is nearly 90  right turned, while the wheels are nearly straight. I don't know if this has been told before. Would this be the consequence of this accident, that would have happened during the trials?

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Dear Olivier , I hope you will feel better soon ! I´ll try to answer some questions : By extension of the cam fairings I thought about their height. On photo 12 and 21 you can see ,they are not so "flat"as the kit´s fairings.That´s the reason I said , I will cut out the cam fairings of my Italeri bonnets ,glue them over my Protar fairings , add filler and file and sand them in shape.

The questions regarding the hinges : I will connect the bonnets by screwing them to a support plate. This means , it will be a stiff conection first with a gap.

This way it´s easier to make the adaption works regarding the bodywork and the radiator case . A general advice : Don´t hesitate to use metal parts for your construction !

For many parts like the crossbeams or hinges metal parts are way better than plastic parts . This kit was designed as a metal kit by Protar first , so why looking at the Italeri copy as an original ?

The "gap" I was talking about can be seen , if you look at photo 1 through the spokes of the front wheel. It´s arched and not pointed !

The observation regarding the steering wheel´s position is very interesting , but I don´t have an answer for that . On photo 7 for instance the position seems to be correct .

Maybe Bordino preferred another position for the race for ergonomical reasons.  Many greetings and all the best for your health !  Hannes

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Olivier,

 

This is only opinion but the steering is turned in a number of pictures. I think it is unlikely that they would have left the steering damaged. I think it is just the gearing on the steering is mcuh lower than the gearing of the wheels. i.e. big angle on the steering wheel gives small change in weel angle.

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17 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

in the article from la Sicilia on the last page, if i am not mistaken - with my very limited italian and reading from my phone, it says that Eng. Massimo revealed 40 years later to the journalist ( 1927 + 40 = 1967 ?  when did eng. Massimo die ? ) that the 806 layouts were disguised / camouflaged under the 504 ref. (to avoid total destruction).

Dear Sam,

I think you did not understand well that point: when Fiat decided, in 1925, to come-back in competition, after a first decision of Agnelli to stop in 1924, after the Fiat crushing defeat at ACF Lyon G.P (that you can see in the excellent Roy video...), it was a secret project, and, to avoid spéculations, they decided to name the project "504", as if it was a passenger car. And that is why nothing was found on the 806, as the technicians of the new Centro Storico were looking for drawings on the 806, while the drawings (drawing 2, certainly, through others) were labelled "504"...

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@Olivier de St Raph

 

dear Olivier, ok thank you, i understand that the referencing to 504 was prior to the destruction. Get well. Am too a little under the weather.

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UhX1RF.png

 

PuvPcG.jpgLook what I have just got from Paul Kierstein from the Rev's institute (who gave me the authorization to name him): as a supplementary reply to Sam. As we could imagine, we now have the PROOF that this drawing 2 was labelled 504 (enlarge the photos on the top left corner). These were the plans that Fiat staff made circulate in the factory (there were thousands of Fiat employees and they used that fake name to keep the secret about the new race car, as Sebastien told in his book)... Now, I would like to know if there is a date on this document. Probably, Paul will be able to see it, directly, without any lose of quality. I will ask him to have a look. I would not be surprised if the drawing was done from 1925, which would be very important, to compare with Delage and Talbot drawings, in order to know who the first had this great inspiration to make a very low body with decentred engine and pilot seat between the rail and the transmission shaft...

Looking at these originals, I feel like Indiana Jones... 

And it s not over. The best is maybe to come, even if Mark told me he had good and bad news.

Picture yourself that the institute has ..... a Protar built 806 (I am gonna post the photos very soon, let me a little time to find back my spirits.

I got the fever, but I think this time, it is not influenza! :D

If you read me, Mark, thanks so much for digging like you do!! 

But if you want a really accurate model for your institute, you will need to buy another (while you said the institute usually does not buy models...

 

P.S: And Sebastien who thought the Rev's institute would have nothing interesting...

 

 

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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The Rev's Protar kit:

 

 

iH0uoU.png

 

Well, that's curious. On these enlargements copy, the date is 27/10/27!! How can we explain this?? Why Massimino would have done such drawings so late, nearly 2 months after the Milano race?? I'm totally confused...

mlzm2Y.png8qwEgu.png

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Dear Olivier what amazing finds ! 2. 10 . 27 ,that´s what I supposed all the time. It´s an improved version and a successor. Many thanks too to the Rev´s institute and it´s friendly emploees !  Hannes

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But, Hannes, if it is so, what need to go on calling this car "504", while everybody knows, in october 27, the 806? 

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I did not take the time to read Paul's mail. Here it is: well, I need to have all the team opinion about that... Of course, I thank very much Paul for his sendings, but when I see all our research, findings, that we freely make available, I was expecting more a financial support than the contrary :(.

 

 

Dear Olivier:

Yes you may use my name. Have you seen The Revs Institute web site and catalog ? It can be found at https://revsinstitute.org .

 

Interestingly we have a model of the car. I took some photos and are attaching side views. I am also attaching some more information about the model from Bonhams. It is a Protar Model. That is what it says on the bottom. I understand that Italeri purchased Protar some time ago. I presume this is the same model you started with.

 

I have no info on who put it together or when. 

Usually REVS does not purchase models so I cannot tell why it was purchased from the material I have access to.

 

I have some good news and some bad news. After doing much more digging I found more. We have two long detailed technical articles in German with line drawings of the chassis and the engine. I have not scanned them yet. There are pictures of the car as well.

 

I have also found 2 blueprints. The attachment shows what they are. Physically these are very fragile and should not be run thru a blueprints scanner. They do not have dimensions. I would guess Fiat  does not have these.

 

Now for the bad news-I have over 4 hours of time in this project and we would have to charge you to go any further. Our rate for private(none commercial) is $50 per hour. If you agree to go forward at the $200.00 charge I will photograph the blueprints and scan the two German articles.

 

I am here 3 days a week so would not be able to get to this till next week. If you wish to go forward let Lesleyanne know and she will send you the credit card authorization and forms.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Paul Kierstein

 
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Maybe Agnelli should not know about that project ?  Hannes

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I precise (because the date is not well seen on one of the docs, that one is dated 12/10/27 and the other 27/10/27.

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Dear Olivier , let´s pay that 200 dollar bill . I´ll contribute for sure . But we need sharper pics of that article you published yesterda  Hannesy

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I would like to know everyone's point of view on this question. Personally, I am confused.. When I think to the hundreds of hours I spent on this work... The question is: what will these new findings bring to us? Will we have a photo of the engine? of the cockpit inside? We made our own blueprints, definitely right at 95% at least, thanks to Roy and Nick, in particular...

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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11 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

dear Olivier it is very easy to fabricate your own hinges. Please see what i did for the Mef. using brass tubes, even copper tubes. You can choose the right size and reproduce the exact number of rivets etc. 

 

Thank you Sam, great work on the hinges! This will help!

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Dear Olivier maybe you should ask first , if ther are useful pics in the german articles .If not , only the improved pics of the Yesterday´s article are important :  Hannes

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@Olivier de St Raph

 

Dear Olivier it is ok, please accept the 200 usd charge. We need a copy of these prints.

 

if you allow me, i volunteer to purchase them immediately and make them available to the group (free of course) .

Then if we need more work done, we can see if we go ahead, if it is worth it, ill gladly pay for it as well.

 

we started this and there is no way to abandon or stop in the middle of the river. 

 

also, it is a great support we have from Paul, so please thank him, and even you can provide me for a tel. no for him and i will call him, and we finalise payment. 

you may even have your scanned plans by tomorrow. :) 

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@Olivier de St Raph

 

What an extra ordinary find.

 

Also, i am delighted that it is you, who is struggling so much in the actual build, with Hannes of course who made this treasure find.

 

You will have your "TRUTH" and you deserve it.

 

Well done dear Olivier 

Edited by sharknose156
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Dear Sam , tomorrow I´ll send you some pics of a horse I was modelling 20 years ago (because you like horses ) I hope you´ll enjoy it ! ( on your Mef´s thread ) Liebe Grüsse !  Hannes

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@Olivier de St Raph - Super find. The fact drawing 2 is contemporary with the car is great. The work that Roy did and I am still on with suggest this is the car they built. Having access to the drawing would be cool but I'd struggle to contribute fundingwise. Also I'm also not sure what owning it adds apart from the date. My main contribution, as with the rest of you is likely to be time.

 

Regards

 

Nick

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What is your interpretation of this curious date, dear Nick? Up to now, I supposed these drawings had been done from 1925, or at least 1926, with the "504" label to keep the secret. But their date is more than 1 month after the race... I am lost! If Massimino had had the amazing idea to build another car, as Hannes suggested, without referring to Agnelli, why did he stop his project? and why didn't he mention that in the interview in La Sicilia given 40 years later? 

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Olivier... you did it! 

 

This is the information we have been looking for all along. The blueprints that were rumored to be lost, actually survived... and indeed it is Drawing 2. 

 

This is arguably the most important finding so far. Many of our theories and assumptions are now supported. 

 

The '504' question is I think not so difficult to answer. The project already had the '504' code from the beginning and there was no direct need to (administratively) change that. Probably many parts made for the 806 also had the '504' code, so I can imagine they wanted to keep that process going. 

 

One thing I don't understand is why the Revs drawings seem to have their right section missing. It seems they are copies of the original blueprints (compare Drawing 2). The blue 'lines' seem to be the original blueprint foldings. 

 

Again Hannes was right (and I was wrong) in the assumption that the drawings were made after the race was finished. I can't find my original post with the two possible theories (before or after the race) but I grew to think that it was definitely before. So now that we know that Hannes was right, we can see -in the drawing- some improvements that the Fiat designers had planned for 1928 racing season: more curved radiator cowl, taller rear end, lower fairing, slightly smaller diameter tyres, round steering wheel. 

 

Simply fantastic efforts Olivier! Kudos, kudos, kudos.

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6 hours ago, NickD said:

Olivier,

 

This is only opinion but the steering is turned in a number of pictures. I think it is unlikely that they would have left the steering damaged. I think it is just the gearing on the steering is mcuh lower than the gearing of the wheels. i.e. big angle on the steering wheel gives small change in weel angle.

Ok Nick, so you think the steering wheel can be "normally" placed, as on photo 3, with straight wheels?

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6 minutes ago, Roy vd M. said:

Olivier... you did it! 

 

This is the information we have been looking for all along. The blueprints that were rumored to be lost, actually survived... and indeed it is Drawing 2. 

 

This is arguably the most important finding so far. Many of our theories and assumptions are now supported. 

 

The '504' question is I think not so difficult to answer. The project already had the '504' code from the beginning and there was no direct need to (administratively) change that. Probably many parts made for the 806 also had the '504' code, so I can imagine they wanted to keep that process going. 

 

One thing I don't understand is why the Revs drawings seem to have their right section missing. It seems they are copies of the original blueprints (compare Drawing 2). The blue 'lines' seem to be the original blueprint foldings. 

 

Again Hannes was right (and I was wrong) in the assumption that the drawings were made after the race was finished. I can't find my original post with the two possible theories (before or after the race) but I grew to think that it was definitely before. So now that we know that Hannes was right, we can see -in the drawing- some improvements that the Fiat designers had planned for 1928 racing season: more curved radiator cowl, taller rear end, lower fairing, slightly smaller diameter tyres, round steering wheel. 

 

Simply fantastic efforts Olivier! Kudos, kudos, kudos.

With all these new developments, Roy, I think you should think about your decision, and the Delage could wait a bit, no? ;)

 

P.S: thank you to all for your compliments, but I did not do anything extraordinary, I was particularly lucky, that's all... And, as Sharknose156 did not lose 1 mn to find an agreement with Paul, I am still luckier!!

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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