This site uses cookies! Learn More

This site uses cookies!

You can find a list of those cookies here: mysite.com/cookies

By continuing to use this site, you agree to allow us to store cookies on your computer. :)

Roy vd M.

Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

1,521 posts in this topic

Dear Fred , many thanks for your explanations ! And no ,I could not spot any rivets or bolts for a connection .   Under the fairings start there could be one or two.

But this won´t be enough I suppose . Maybe this sheet with some bolts near the handbrake is somehow connected with that frame ? I just don´t know .  Many greetings!  Hannes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Hannes said:

Dear Olivier ,regarding a heat protection , if there was something like this it was most probably fixed to that frame I already mentioned it 2 times but noone seems to be interested in that subject. .That´s a part which needs to be represented !

We can clearly see the beginning of that frame on many photos .(at the start of this gap under the exhaust pipe .)

Before discussing a possible firewall we should better discuss this support frame.

What material it was made out of ? What kind of profile did it have ? (maybe L-shaped ? )Are there similar constructions under aluminium bodies of other cars? How was it fixed to the frame and to the bodywork ?

Did it serve other purposes besides supporting the bodywork ?These are importat questions ,because no photos of our car with an opened bonnet exist unfortunately

Many greetings ! .

Sorry, Hannes, but I don't see what you talk about here... Can you explain me, with a drawing fe?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just got this from Mark of Rev's institute. L'auto italiana 15/09/1927. Did not read it yet... Looks excellent... Enjoy!

 

 

 

fl5rHk.png

 

IEaWmZ.png

 

b7ERK1.png

 

ryEjyd.png

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Olivier what a great find !! I´m overwhelmed and want to crawl into these photos ! Maybe greater and somewhat sharper versions could be great contributions for our photo collection ! WOW !

Regarding that frame :The aluminium bodywork  cannot just simply stand on the frame , because it´s not stable enough. That´s the reason it needs one or more frames  ( similar the ribs for an airplane or a boat. )

We can see the first frame for the bodywork after the bonnets at it´s beginning. Photo 2 shows it for example.At the beginning of the gap you can see a small part of that frame parallel to the body work´s outline . In my opinion this frame has an U-shaped form and goes around to the opposite side .It´s one of the spaciest part of the whole car and should get represented imho !

Please also read the explanations Fred gave to us on page 53 ! I can´t say if there also was another frame for the rear or if the frame was extended at it´s base to get a firm connection with the main  frame .  Many greetings !  Hannes

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow that really is a nice find! 

 

I think the most valuable contribution to the collection is the one in which the Fiat is seen from the left side 'in full speed'. Of the other positions we have the same / similar photos of better quality. 

 

EDIT: and the picture of Bordino in the Fiat, in close-up, as Nick says!

 

What I think is more important than these photos is the leads they may bring... below each photo there is the name of the photographer / maker. I can imagine some of these can still be found online nowadays, in archives for example. 

Edited by Roy vd M.
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Olivier de St Raph

 

dear Olivier what is the date of the newspaper article on the previous page from la Sicilia please ? 

 

sorry for mix ups i re edited the text and got confused between the two articles.

 

Fantastic find this last article !

 

Edited by sharknose156
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Olivier - Great Job - I liked the new picture of  Bordino, in an unpainted car but the background has not been retouched out.

 

Nick

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes , the Bordino photo is great . It also shows the heat shield . As it seems , there´s no gap between the shield and the bodywork .And this fine limit line also can be seen !  Hannes

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gentlemen,   @Olivier de St Raph

 

in the article from la Sicilia on the last page, if i am not mistaken - with my very limited italian and reading from my phone, it says that Eng. Massimo revealed 40 years later to the journalist ( 1927 + 40 = 1967 ?  when did eng. Massimo die ? ) that the 806 layouts were disguised / camouflaged under the 504 ref. (to avoid total destruction).

 

The journalist says that Massimo explained that when they decided to build the Centro Storico, they found most of the material needed on the Fiat technical history, but found nothing on the 806 because it was disguised under the 504 ...

 

quoting la Sicilia: 

 

" A trovarono buona parte del materiale, ma non quello della 806, perché venne ricercata come tale mentre, al contrario, era stata camuffata col 504. A distanza di 40 anni, Massimo ha dato la possibilita di retrovare famosi disegni etc.".

 

this could recoup what the nostalgia forum referred to and other rumors, that Giovanni Agnelli and L. di Montezemolo had a project to rebuild one 806, and had the plans and designs, in the late 90's and when Agnelli ( the grandson of the senator ) died, Marchionne who re-structured Fiat shelved the dollars bleeding program.

 

 

 

Edited by sharknose156
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Sam, that Montezemolo ,once director of the Ferrari racing team ? Maybe we should send him a letter and appeal to his plans in the 90 ´s  Liebe Grüsse !  Hannes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hannes,

 

I wondered about the fairing. The fastners are not visible and the fit is better. Maybe they did not change the background but touched up the fairing instead. Have not had time to look closely though.

 

Regards

 

Nick

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are right Nick ,it looks like a brand-new fairing .Two of the rivets can be seen similar to photo 2. But the marks caused by the frame wire are almost not visible . Maybe there were retouching measures or the fairing was deformed a bit under high-speed conditions .  Hannes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The photo before the start  ( our photo 4 ) also shows the frame and some more details .If we had this version in a better resolution this would greatly help to unravel some secrets of the car´s left side Hannes

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Hannes said:

Dear Sam, that Montezemolo ,once director of the Ferrari racing team ? Maybe we should send him a letter and appeal to his plans in the 90 ´s  Liebe Grüsse !  Hannes

 

@Hannes

 

dear Hannes

 

Yes, Luca di Montezemolo was a protegé of the Agnelli family and was running he show when Giovanni Agnelli was sick. When Marcionne was chosen as CEO - famous for turning around companies and very strict on costs -  he canceled many projects launched by the Agnelli-Montezemolo management.

 

L.d.M left the board. 

 

He was also very appreciated by Enzo Ferrari and despite being very young was at the head of the ferrari racing team operations when Niki Lauda became world champion twice.

 

i don't think he would be interested to help.

 

Without further ado ( and further rude schoolmasterly trampling and hysterics), i intend go to centro storico as planned in february for the Mef. and will ask about the 806. We shall see.

Edited by sharknose156
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎10‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 6:19 PM, Hannes said:

They are also not extended enough if you look at the frontal photos of our car.

I got a cold, influenza, 2 days ago, despite the vaccine I get every year... This morning, I will stay cool, just work this afternoon. I take advantage to read the lasts 24h posts. I have been reading the article of Auto italiana, that relates in detail the Milano G.P. It is funny to see how this race was much more waited by the many people than the European G.P run the same day. We can suppose the major G.P would have been much more important if an Italian car had taken the departure... All this is in relation obviously with the extreme  chauvinism in the historic context of Italy in 1927... Consider that , even today, in a peaceful Europe, reconciled with itself, some sports, like soccer, gives rise to chauvinism. Imagine what it could be in a fascist, nationalist country like Italy was at that time...

Bordino began low the 2 races (eliminatory and final), before he let the bullets talk... Maybe he had to take care with the fragile engine. Another assumption is that he did that intentionally to give to his victories a still better perfume... The "diavolo rosso", as he was nicknamed, was really the public's pet, even if Campari, running on AR, the milanese brand, was certainly quite popular too.

This public was very noisy, and, if I understood well, desappointed because Benoist, on the Delage, who had ever won the major G.P, did not participate to the Milano ´s one. 

The article, in the end, insists on the bad organisation, especially in the pits, where many people who should not have been there were staying.

 

And now, return to the thread, with first, a question for Hannes, quoted above:

So, Hannes, you think the bonnets are too short in lenght, that's right? Or did you talk about the faircams?

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
add
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/01/2017 at 6:19 PM, Hannes said:

In this gap real hinges could find their place or fake hinges too.

The problem is to find not oversized hinges. At 1/12, they shoud be very thin... The other solution, that I probably will choose, is to use rods made of brass, fe, taking inspiration on the Delage bonnets photo I published yesterday.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/01/2017 at 6:19 PM, Hannes said:

Also take a look at the frontal gap ( below the cam-fairings beginning ) ! In reality this gap is arched and not pointed !  Many greetings !  Hannes

One more time, I hope I will see what you mean there. I am in bed now, so, difficult to see, but it is sure that if you could show with arrows on photos, as I often do, it would be much easier...

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

The problem is to find not oversized hinges. At 1/12, they shoud be very thin... The other solution, that I probably will choose, is to use rods made of brass, fe, taking inspiration on the Delage bonnets photo I published yesterday.

 

@Olivier de St Raph   dear Olivier it is very easy to fabricate your own hinges. Please see what i did for the Mef. using brass tubes, even copper tubes. You can choose the right size and reproduce the exact number of rivets etc. 

 

L1030157_zpsk6rayfc5.jpg

 

 

L1030156_zpsuh29hd3y.jpg

1883afd8-a293-477b-b1ef-7e69461a9597_zps

 

3aa6c5db-4306-43ef-805f-2a04e238ba94_zps

Edited by sharknose156
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

i think the first serious firewalls, insulating flames incase of fire and heat, appeared on the Delage of the same year which was notorious to heat up even the pedals and burn the shoe soles of the drivers.

 

A few years back, i remember driving a pre war Riley, and what is called a "firewall" was simply a thin sheet of aluminium or metal and not even complete, stopping over the gearbox and power train. I think this was only to prevent flames in case of fire, not heat. 

 

in conclusion, on the 806 because of what we know about the overheating issues, i would say there must have been a minimum protection against flames, not heat, just like on the Riley.

Sam, 

do you mean there that there was probably something, a separation, between cockpit and engine, that would not be contained on the kit?

If I remember well, there is such a partition wall on the Mef, but the Mef does not have the oil protection screen...

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Olivier de St Raph

 

dear Olivier, the Mef has a wooden planks firewall, probably intended to prevent the heavy fumes and oil spills reaching the driver.  No need for the oil jet-spills screen protection, the car was so big. 

 

yes i think there must have been a very thin vertical metallic sheet, starting from the top of the cockpit - bonnets demarcation line, but not extending all the way to the floor, acting as a flame and oil jets protection ( not heat protection )   

 

in any case i will most probably add one for my 806 if it is not in the kit

 

Edited by sharknose156
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Metal material would be in the region of 1 to 1.3 mm thick.

Around 1,2 mm at scale 1:1??

Well, This would mean 0,1 mm thickness at 1/12, impossible to get with plastic. As I will keep the plastic as material, here, it will be a compromise. Difficult to go more thin than 0,5 / 0,7 mm, which ever requires a lot of sanding on the thick Italeri plastic...

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
Correction

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Black Knight said:

your point 5. do you mean the different coloured strip running from the leather strap at the top down the length of the bonnets to the other leather strap at the floor end?

That is the 'piano' hinge; most likely brass and riveted to both bonnets.

No, I mean the nearly squarre on the left inside bonnet.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

dear Olivier what is the date of the newspaper article on the previous page from la Sicilia please ? 

The date of publishing in La Sicilia is 18/10/1967, 1 year after Centro Storico Fiat opening, and 40 years after the race. Massimino makes me sad in this paper. He feels guilty while he did his best to resolve the front axle issue. The real culprit is Agnelli, IMHO. I think he was able of rage and not very respectful regarding his employees. It is perhaps an assumption from me, but I think it explains the brain drain Fiat had to face from 192. In SF book, all this story is very well described: Cappa, the first, and then Bertarione and Jano, preffered to leave the boat, because of this bad consideration.

And the 806 is not their child, it is Zerbi and Massimino ´s one, who remained faithfully. But, while both of them were working night and day to get the car ready for the next G.P in England, the boss ordered to stop the program.... and, if we refer to Massimino ´s interview (in this, we have another version in SF book) ordered the destruction of all the race cars, including the 806...

He was maybe more interested in football (Torino Juventus) and Schneider trophy, without thinking how these legendary cars would miss to the future generations....

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now