Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Hannes]

Maybe the evading gases burnt the bandage material and made the visible gap geater in an optical way  as it is in reality. Hannes

[Black Knight]

I think its highly unlikely that exhaust gases at about 80* would burn an asbestos exhaust bandage.

Blow back will not lower power output noticeably.

I get blow-back and sooting around the loose joint on my exhausts and it doesn't lower my meagre bhp - it was checked on a rolling-road tuning unit at one time.

[Hannes]

What we can say is the wrapping had to be stopped at this point and a new wrapping had to be done for the rest of the  pipe . Hannes

[NickD]

We seem to have been having a busy day today.

 

Right hold on to your hats. In this post and posssibly a second one I'll give an update on where've got to. hopefully the results are worth the wait.

 

Some things still need a tweak but it is looking surprisingly good. There is one significant outstanding issue too which will be relevant to Olivier and Hannes.

 

Background

 

I have aligned the model with Photos 2, 3, and 4. These means setting up 3 cameras and then guessing the focal length for each. Very time consuming. Rather than generate a solid model, I have generated a preliminary set of lines using splines. These are lines drawn between a small number of points (usually 2 or 3). Accuracy is given by providing control of the direction the line leaves each point. I can give more detail if required but lets get to the pictures. It gives a great deal of control.

 

What usually happens is that I get a got alignment but not perfect. This is probably the best I have ever achieved.

 

Where there is a feature on the body I have used that as a reference in each picture. I need at least two to triangulate.

 

I have still had to guess in some places. The cross-section of the tail is a scaled version of the bonnet shape. It seems to be OK but might need a tweak. I only used drawing 2 for the longitudinal and vertical location of the cockpit but not the shape or final position.

 

 

 

I have concentrated on the body. The seat cushion is not done yet nor the associated fairing. I have marked the location of the louvres but not picked them out.

 

Photo 2

Alignment good everywhere apart from the tail. I think this camera which was used for photos 1,2 & 3 was pretty undistorted across most of the frame apart from the left hand edge. Approximately from the rear wheel centre left. We have noted this elsewhere in the thread and it is really obvious here as we will see

 

Photo 3

This proves the camera was pretty good. Probaly a bit more thought on the radiator but otherwise the agreement is excellent. The two cameras were about 90 degrees apart which is good. The tail error is really noticable here. It was so bad that I wondered if the tail was symmetric. I think it is for reasons below.

 

Photo 4

This is what gave me confidence. Different camera. Opposite side of the car. Agreement at the front is again excellent. Used this exclusively to give the rear body lines. Probably a bit more thought here. I think I still have it a bit low. (See next post). Again a tweak to the radiator at the front would be good.

Why did I pick this picture over the other 2 - primarily because the rear wheels are round.

 

Clearly still need to also do a bit of work on the lower lines at the rear.

 

The only prob with this pic is how dark it is.

 

That will do for one post

 

Let me know your thoughts

Regards

 

Nick

 

PS - still not sorted the wheels- LOL

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Hello to all,

Here is Sebastien ´s reply to my question about the 2 versions we have concerning the context in which Agnelli ordered the destruction of all the Fiat racing cars (see above):

 Au sujet de la version sur la destruction des Fiat de Grand Prix, les deux versions se valent au niveau fiabilité historique puisque Massimino et Giacosa étaient tous les deux employés de Fiat. Je ne sais plus exactement ce qu'en dit Massimino, mais j'ai trouvé la version de Giacosa beaucoup plus réaliste.

Je ne vois pas pourquoi on déciderait de détruire des voitures de course à la fin d'une saison ratée. En revanche détruire des voitures dans un accès de rage à la suite d'un grand moment de tristesse, ça me parait plus réaliste. A titre exemple: l'ingénieur Ducarouge, qui avait conçu plusieurs formule 1 depuis les années 1970, a décidé de tout arrêter le jour de la mort de Senna.

 

I translate quickly : Sébastien says that the 2 versions are possible, but the one of D. Giacosa, in his book (decision taken after Bordino ´s death the 15/4/28, I recall) seems to him much more probable. 

Tonight, if I am not too tired, I will send a mail to La Sicilia, the daily paper that indeed still exists( as Roy said) and another one to the Rev's institute...

No model making today for me, just pro work...

I just, between 2 patients, read the  posts published.

Good evening to all

[NickD]

Part 2 - How does this compare to Drawing 2

 

Sideview

 

Good alignment generally. Differences appear at the front. The photogrammetry suggests the bonnet hinge line is close to horizontal. The grill seems deeper. At the rear the height of seems to be lower than Drawing 2 but I think is this at odds with Photo 4. I will revisit Photo 4 and just confirm where the centre line is.

 

Top

Had to use Drawing 2 for rear of car width. Cockpit, bonnet and grill all taken from photos.

 

Front

This view is a little confusing. The fairing and general cross section for the front and rear can be seen as can are the cam cover bulges. They look too pronounced to my eye so I will have to go back and have another look. Right edge of the fairing looks slightly abrupt and would be worth a further look.

 

I have not used the video still of the front yet which should help tie those details down.

 

The limitations of our materials is also obvious - Photo 4 looks the most reasonable. Photo 8  which looks heavily doctored my but worth a second look if the basic features are right.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

 

[Hannes]

Dear Nick , what anamazing work ! I think , these wire-frame constructions are much more useful for the construction of our model than being covered by surfaces .

The most important informations are the ratio distances and sizes .The wire-frame also allows us to see the opposite side and so we can better judge an angle or the foresighting of the perspective .

Smaller details are not so important imho , but the points where there are fixations are .(engine fixing points , leaf spring fixing points ,axes of course ) These geometrical informations are the foundation of our construction .

The bodywork is very convincing and already contains the most relevant informations we need .

Don´t waste your time by constructing single louvres  or a fuel cap !  If you can construct the frame and the axes in the same brilliant way you did with the body ,all dreams of us would become reality.

Many thanks again for your excellent work 1  Hannes

[NickD]

Thanks for the positive feedback.

 

One thing to be careful of. I've noticed that the way I take screenshots, load them on Flickr and then attach them to the posts seems to adds some distortion some times ( wheels are not round any more.

 

Worth a check if you are using the second post.

 

Nick

[Roy vd M.]

Very impressive Nick!

 

Don't worry too much about the grille, I had to rework that to 'modernize' drawing 2. It could well be that the whole grille was redesigned at one point in time. 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Hello guys,

well, I see many things have happened here today. Nick, not yet taken the time to look all what you did, but looks great! Bravo!

Here is how I am gonna try to open my bonnets louvres, using special blades inside, with care. These blades are surgery ones, but I think you can do the same with a triangular blade (new). After opening, I will first use the triangular blade on the outside to get the louvres more thin and then, I will apply gently liquid polystyrene cement (Tamyia or Micro Weld) to make disappear the little plastic defects. 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
add

[NickD]

@Olivier de St Raph - one observation - the cam fairing shape might need some work. In the photos it appears to be a cone with a hemispher rather than the more curvy shape the models seems to have. What do you think?

 

 

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , for opening the louvres I used a cut-off hacksaw -blade which was filed thinner and smaller  at it´s front.But I was dealing with a metal part and so maybe your instruments are better suited. Many greetings !  Hannes

[CrazyCrank]

10 minutes ago, NickD said:

@Olivier de St Raph - one observation - the cam fairing shape might need some work. In the photos it appears to be a cone with a hemispher rather than the more curvy shape the models seems to have. What do you think?

 

 

I think you're right Nick, looking at photos 1A,3, 4 and 9

 

Congratulations for your incredible work on the photogrametry

Edited January 9, 2017 by CrazyCrank

[NickD]

Thanks all for the kind comments

 

One thing I forgot to mention was the length is almost exactly what Drawing 2 depicts. All-in-all Drawing 2 seems a pretty robust reference.

 

Nick

[Totally Mad Olivier]

51 minutes ago, NickD said:

@Olivier de St Raph - one observation - the cam fairing shape might need some work. In the photos it appears to be a cone with a hemispher rather than the more curvy shape the models seems to have. What do you think?

 

 

Dear Nick,

if I understand well, what you call the "cam fairing shape" is the part showed with a green arrow on the photo? 

I think you are right, I did not notice that, thank you for this accurate look. 

[NickD]

Yep

[sharknose156]

Dear Nick    @NickD

 

Incredible work, very clever work.....

love the alignment and re-alignment and cross verification.  

So Drawing 2 is our main reference bible ?

 

How to thank you ?!!

 

It is as Hannes says what we need to build an accurate body.

 

Were you using Gimp here all the time ?  i think i will ask for a pro to give me lessons to use this software.

Very interesting work in many aspects. ( and you said elsewhere you have less patience than me ? )

 

On the camfairing; indeed it needs work IMHO.

 

Nick once again - and am sure not the last time, my hat raised to you and then lowered low - respect !

Sam 

  

[harveyb258]

 In my humble opinion, Roy, and I'm by no means an expert, but yes.....I think it's exhaust "blow-back". I can't see that it would be anything else!

 

Hannes... it's really nice to see some of your work......I see an immaculately clean build in-the-offing that's just rolled-out of Torino,ready for the race! Love it! Can't wait to see more progress! Are you going to coach-paint the body-shell, or will it be an air-brush finish? For the sake of reality, it "needs" to be hand-painted

 

 

Sam.... apologies for the late reply mate, I have actually just finished putting together the engine and gearbox blocks , so they now await a couple of rounds of filler/sanding etc to get rid of all the horrible molding imperfections. All raised-detail[nuts/bolts] etc will be removed and replaced by scratch-made items. I will post pics when there's something worth looking at... I promise!

 

I am still refusing to paint anything.... apart from some dirty washes. There's nothing in this world that looks more like metal, than real metal! I'm a carpenter by trade and I feel physically sick when someone destroys a beautiful  piece of of work with a brush. So, if I want something to look like copper, I ill make it from copper....that's me, sorry! To be totally honest with you all, I have always been crap[soz] at painting and usually screw up my hard work when the brush or air-gun comes into play. If you look at my cooper build[engine], the only areas with any paint are the cam overs, which were black. The block is made from aluminium, as was the real thing....just a few dirty washes!

 

Keep up the good work guys! I love you all!

 

Cheers, H

 

 

[NickD]

@sharknose156 - thanks for the compliments. On your specific questions:

 

Drawing 2 - everything Roy and I have done suggests it is a very good reference. Rear lines, radiator grill and wheels are the main areas of concern.

 

I used Blender - it is completely free but the learning curve is a bit steep - can be a real time-burner - really powerful - the above does not even to begin to scratch the surface of what it can achived. I do some things well but the I am still paddling in the shallows compared to some.

 

Patience - Some things just have to be worked out - as we have all demonstrated here.

Nick

 

 

[Hannes]

Dear Harvey ,Im far away from thinking about the color . But I never touched an airbrush system in my life ! Beeing a master craftsman too (stone mason ) I had to deal a lot wih retouches and color for sculptures. Of course the "real deal " is always the best , but sometimes illusions could have the same effect . I think about different powders ( Uschi van der Rosten ) that could be useful  for some details ( for instance : the frame of the scratchbuildt grille ) I think we as modelers are some kind of illusionists too !  Many greetings !  Hannes

[Roy vd M.]

When studying the Delage I sometimes encounter some interesting things with direct or indirect respect to the Fiat. Of course I'll post them here if sufficiently relevant. 

 

Just now I found a 1926-1927 comparison in looks of the car. What interests me insofar regarding the Fiat is the tail of the car. Whereas the 1926 version resembles the tail of the Fiat as seen in the side view of the original Drawing 2 (both are tall), the 1927 version looks more like the tail of the Fiat as we know it from the photos. The 1926 Delage has a shorter tail though, whereas the Fiat's tail was eventually cut a bit. 

 

The Fiat engineers had no opportunity to see the Delage race in the 1926 Monza Grand Prix (as the Delages did not participate) but they may have 'spied' a bit during the Spanish Grand Prix and/or the British Grand Prix where Delage surprisingly won. Just as the Delage was most probably inspired by the Talbot (offset engine), the Fiat may have been inspired (partly) by either the Talbot or the Delage. 1927 same story, the team saw the new Delage tail and may have amended the Fiat tail similarly. 

 

This is to some extent supportive to the theory that Drawing 2 was made prior to any of the known photos taken of the Fiat 806.

 

(Copyright unknown, referential and educational purposes only, picture will be deleted upon first request by the holder of copyrights)

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

14 hours ago, Hannes said:

The frontal cross-strut is not painted , same goes for the tips of the frame .I guess the mechanics simply did not have time enough to  paint the exchange - strut after the accident.

I will paint it red , because I want to show a somewhat idealizised model. Maybe some of you have an idea how this fine mesh could be represented ?  Hannes

Dear Hannes,

I am not sure of what you talk about here:

- the frontal cross-strut: are you talking about 108 and 109D on the kit? I don't suppose so, because, even on HR, I can't imagine you can draw te conclusion these parts were not painted... So, what is it?

- the tips of the frame: here too, can you precise exactly what part you talk about, with a drawing fe?

Thank you very much

Olivier

[Totally Mad Olivier]

3 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

When studying the Delage I sometimes encounter some interesting things with direct or indirect respect to the Fiat. Of course I'll post them here if sufficiently relevant. 

 

Just now I found a 1926-1927 comparison in looks of the car. What interests me insofar regarding the Fiat is the tail of the car. Whereas the 1926 version resembles the tail of the Fiat as seen in the side view of the original Drawing 2 (both are tall), the 1927 version looks more like the tail of the Fiat as we know it from the photos. The 1926 Delage has a shorter tail though, whereas the Fiat's tail was eventually cut a bit. 

 

The Fiat engineers had no opportunity to see the Delage race in the 1926 Monza Grand Prix (as the Delages did not participate) but they may have 'spied' a bit during the Spanish Grand Prix and/or the British Grand Prix where Delage surprisingly won. Just as the Delage was most probably inspired by the Talbot (offset engine), the Fiat may have been inspired (partly) by either the Talbot or the Delage. 1927 same story, the team saw the new Delage tail and may have amended the Fiat tail similarly. 

 

This is to some extent supportive to the theory that Drawing 2 was made prior to any of the known photos taken of the Fiat 806.

 

(Copyright unknown, referential and educational purposes only, picture will be deleted upon first request by the holder of copyrights)

 

 

 

Roy,

that's an interesting assumption. If I understand well, the Drawing 2 would have been the Massimino drawing in 1925 (we know he drew it on that year) but the car was modified, especially on the tail, inspired by the Delage, and they did not draw a specific plan after this modif. That's why we don't have a totally right drawing of the car as it was in september 1927. It is a very attractive assumption (I had ever suggested that Drawing 2 was maybe Massimino original drawing in 1925).

My mail sent to La Sicilia yesterday night has not been sent (I got the message Undelivery...), I don't know why. The "undelivery message" says: Mailbox has exceeded the limit. I am surprised, would do you suggest? I tried to resend it this morning but got the same reply...
 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

8 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

Dear Nick    @NickD

 

Incredible work, very clever work.....

love the alignment and re-alignment and cross verification.  

So Drawing 2 is our main reference bible ?

 

How to thank you ?!!

 

It is as Hannes says what we need to build an accurate body.

 

Were you using Gimp here all the time ?  i think i will ask for a pro to give me lessons to use this software.

Very interesting work in many aspects. ( and you said elsewhere you have less patience than me ? )

 

On the camfairing; indeed it needs work IMHO.

 

Nick once again - and am sure not the last time, my hat raised to you and then lowered low - respect !

Sam 

Of course, Nick, I totally agree with Sam. Thanks to your work (and to Roy's one), we now have finally the relation between the fairing and the body, on top and lateral view. This would have been very useful for me 'and avoided many modif) if I had got it at the beginning of my build...

Thanks and hats off!

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , it´s about part 9 b and the part of the frame , where it´s fixed .I guess , this strut  had to be exchanged after the accident ( damaged radiator case ) and there was no time enough to paint that new strut imho  Hannes