NickD Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 @Roy vd M. - so many models so little time. I have thoroughly enjoyed the journey. Your contribution has been immense and your ability to find stuff impressive. It will be interesting to see if you can "retire" quite so completely! Personally there are some loose ends I want to try to sort out. It does not look like tyre-gate will be resolved any time soon and then I have to live up to everyone's expectations (thanks for your kind words @Hannes). Given the standard of contribution from all on this thread I am daunted about whether it will ever be good enough! Best Wishes Nick 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 (edited) 23 hours ago, Roy vd M. said: Translation: the "806" side view and in plan view. In this design still does not appear the changes made to stiffen the front of the chassis. DIMENSIONS: Passo m 2,400. Careggiata: ant. m 1,300 post. m. 1,300 * Lughezza m 3,640, larghezza m 1.450. Altezza: massima m. 1,065, minima da terra cm. 14. * Alcuni disegni Fiat portano diversi valori per le carreggiate: avantreno: m 1,270 retrotreno m. 1,200. Translation: Wheelbase 2,400 m. Track gauge: ant. m 1,300 post. m. 1,300 * total length: 3,640 m, 1,450 m wide. Height: maximum m. 1,065, minimum ground cm. 14. Dear Roy, I am very surprised and disappointed by your decision not to build the 806 soon. Without you, who were at the origin of this new thread, who brought so much, who made so many efforts to get good stuff, we will feel a bit orphans, even if you go on sharing with us and following the thread. Obviously, I respect this decision, but I am surprised, your will seemed so strong, I really hope you will change your mind, as you began to build the engine, if I am not wrong. Your last finding, this italian 1974 article, and my Massimino interview, in 1967, this other book you're gonna receive, all that should make you think about such a decision. So, it seems that the lenght is really 3640 mm (as the Italeri instructions said, at least true on this...), and the width 1450 mm, here are infos that were missing up to now, very important for the build. 3640 : 12 = 303 mm and 1450 : 12 = 121 mm. Take your time, think again, and again, and again... WE NEEED YOU, ROY!! Olivier, orphan Edited January 7, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph add 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Now caught up with both articles. Thanks for posting them chaps. It really seems like someone has more information somewhere.. Perhaps not enough to satisfy Roy! - but more certainty than we have now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 4 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said: French translation of the article in italian in "La Sicilia" 18/10/1967 (it took me a long time to translate from italian to french this extremely important article for us, and now, to reproduce it here, so, if a good soul could make the english translation, I would be very grateful... That is an important article indeed Olivier. I hadn't gotten that when I diagonally tried to understand the Italian text before. I think it's interesting to see if Drawing 2 is in the book I ordered. If so, then we know (almost) for sure that that isn't Massimino's drawing. Because the book I'll receive is older than the article (book: 1966, article: 1967). Massimino died in 1975... I agree that probably the only option to get to the drawing (if it isn't Drawing 2) is to contact the magazine! I saw it still exists. 3 hours ago, Hannes said: Dear Roy , what should I say ? I´m deeply touched and of course I respect your decision. I´m also convinced that you will stay connected with us and hopefully you will feel encouraged , if you see the progress of our constructions. It´s up to those , who actually build the model to show gratefulness for what you did. Because your incredible work we now are able to construct a convincing model. There´s also no need to feel discouraged ! The construction can be done and very often challenges look harder as they are in reality. I also appreciate greatly Nick´s fantastic work and I hope he will continue to create a virtual model so we could see dimensions and proportions. I will use the kit as foundation for my model and will elaborate a plan for those who want to do the same . Other members might have different approaches but I´m sure we finally will build the best 806 the world has ever seen ! Hannes Thank you very much for your kind words! 2 hours ago, NickD said: @Roy vd M. - so many models so little time. I have thoroughly enjoyed the journey. Your contribution has been immense and your ability to find stuff impressive. It will be interesting to see if you can "retire" quite so completely! Personally there are some loose ends I want to try to sort out. It does not look like tyre-gate will be resolved any time soon and then I have to live up to everyone's expectations (thanks for your kind words @Hannes). Given the standard of contribution from all on this thread I am daunted about whether it will ever be good enough! Nick thanks for your kind words too. And I do hope you'll finalize the 3D-model, if it ever is finalized. Don't worry about it too much, you do to the best of your abilities and with all the info we have... can't do more than that! 1 hour ago, Olivier de St Raph said: I am very surprised and disappointed by your decision not to build the 806 soon. Without you, who were at the origin of this new thread, who bought so much, who made so many efforts to get good stuff, we will feel a bit orphans, even if you go on sharing with us and following the thread. I equally enjoy following others' builds as I do building my own. To me research like we did here is very rewarding and it makes me joyful that you guys can you use it and are happy with the results. And of course, eventually I'll just steal all your solutions for Fiat 806 scratchbuilding problems See it from the bright side... the research for the Fiat is now probably 70% done or so. After the research I would go back to the McLaren anyway, as I stated that at the beginning of the thread. Now that I'll do some simultaneous research (jointly with those adventurers who feel like it) regarding the Delage, those who will want to scratchbuild it will find a lot of research work already done when finishing their Fiat 806. 1 hour ago, Olivier de St Raph said: Obviously, I respect this decision, but I am surprised, your will seemed so strong, It's a combination of reasons. For me it was time to move on (and back) to a next (and previous) project. I also can't focus on more than one or two things at a time. 1 hour ago, Olivier de St Raph said: I really hope you will change your mind, as you began to build the engine, if I am not wrong. No I only made a dryfit to check whether Drawing 2 would match Engine Drawings 4 and 5. 1 hour ago, Olivier de St Raph said: Your last finding, this italian 1974 article, and my Massimino interview, in 1967, this other book you're gonna receive, all that should make you think about such a decision. So, it seems that the lenght is really 3640 mm (as the Italeri instructions said, at least true on this...), and the width 1450 mm, here are infos that were missing up to now, very important for the build. I'm not sure about those conclusions. I think the length is wrongly based on the previous side view of Drawing 2 (with the long tail). Height isn't correct at all. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vontrips Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Olivier and Roy, some great information in those last few postings and only just had time to read them fully. Roy, I respect your decision to get back onto the McLaren as you were already doing some fab work on it. You sound similar to me only being able to focus on a couple of projects at a time...we're only blokes after all! Looking forward to seeing the MP4/6 spring to life with some suitably fantastically machined components! Talking if which; you better go and fire that lathe up! ;-) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Dear Olivier , please remember the advice I once gave to you. If you want to make corrections regarding the fairing or the outlines of your cockpit I highly recommend the smallest strips available (1 / 0.5 mm ) ! These small strips are very underestimated imho . If you want to change an outline for instance , take one of these small strips and glue it with both ends to the required places after cutting . If there´s a gap , you can fill it with small pieces of the same strip , glue together , file or cut and add filler in the end .I recommend super-glue . As I said before , filing and carving with sharp knives or blades are the key to get good shapes.For greater surfaces I recommend a polyester 2 K filler and for smaller ones a plastic filler like Revell Plasto will be sufficient. Never try to get a good form only by sanding ! Sanding is necessary sometimes and of course in the final stage , but please don´t overdo it ! It´s also important to add liquid filler in the end ( maybe with a brush ) so you can judge the form and start with fine-sanding.Corrections still can be made after that . These kind of techniques are simple , but effective ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Hannes said: Dear Olivier , please remember the advice I once gave to you. If you want to make corrections regarding the fairing or the outlines of your cockpit I highly recommend the smallest strips available (1 / 0.5 mm ) ! These small strips are very underestimated imho . I was wondering if I could not use the masking tape from Jammydog to outline the fairing. It is self adhesive, easy to use and very thin (0,05 mm), just slightly visible, as this outline is on painted versions of the car, like photo 4, fe... It is narrow and thin enough to allow negotiating turns. No CA required... And the "rivets" on this outline, I will probably use 0,05 mm thickness alu , here too very slightly visible (the 0,13 mm plastic card was too much). I know there is a debate to know if there were rivets or holes, but, in the lack of certainty, I have to choose (I could also have done neither rivets, neither holes... Photos soon of my body... Edited January 7, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph add 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Dear Olivier ,first things first ! The outlines can be made easily by a small file and sanding down . But the shape of the fairing must be correct ! It´s much smaller than I thought in the beginning. Seen from the left side it´s very small.The most important photo regarding the fairings left side is photo 7 A ,where you can see the outline of the fairing .If you compare it with the kit´´s shield the kit´s left side has to get cut dramatically ! On photo 4 we can hardly see the outline but it gives an impression how much the whole fairing was delayed towards the right side. I wanted to be ready with my own work before you returned from Florida but my family from the USA was on visit (and my dear grandkids playing Super Mario all the time ! ) and I also discovered some details that had need to be changed . Hopefully I can send some pictures next week so we could discuss the whole subject ! Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Dear Olivier regarding the outlines I was thinking of the lines where the fairing meets the body ,sorry ! You were thinking about the included wire. In this case I also recommend these thin strps because they can get easily sanded down to the required shape Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Found this. Not got much on the 806 but it gives good context for the motor racing scene in 1927 http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/march-1943/4/racing-car Regards Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Dear Nick , thanks a lot ! I also discovered this side some weeks ago and I was wondering why there were a lot of photos of old - fashioned looking racing cars and none of our 806 . Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I was surprised that I had not seen this already - as we have so many hawk-eyed investigators. @Hannes _ I guess I have just caught up. Thought it a good article though 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 No dear Nick you really didn´t catch up . I guess we all are a bit shocked now about Roy´s withdrawal. But he announced it early in this thread ! I guess the research era will get less important in the future and the realisation of the project will become more important . It would be a great new start if some more members would decide to build the real 806. That´s why I´m thinking about a plan to make the whole construction more attractive for some members . I think , the best reward for Roy would be some convincing models buildt by us. Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Hannes, That's a great idea but... As I said elsewhere, so many models so little time. For me, I have: a Mefistofele, MP4-6, complete a virtual Sea Harrier, complete the virtual 806, then TSR-2 (an awesome creation if not a successful or wise one), a couple of WWI planes that I have a lot of history with and are just about to be issued by WNW, a virtual SR-71 (I saw it for the first time at Duxford recently - unbelievable machine), a Porsche 917K must be made one day and an Alfa 159, oh and this thread has opened my eyes to the wonderful machines and heros of the twenties, and probably others I have forgotton. At my usual rate of one every 2 years that should keep me busy for a while! Still a physical version of a proper 806 to put alongside my Mef would be very tempting... All the best Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Oh wow ,Nick this would drive me crazy ! The only competitor of my 806 is a naked plaster woman and she´s waiting for her arms and hands . And of course my Mef is waiting in his glass-case for a small comrade . Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Hello guys, I leave for instance the research and historical aspects (fascinating, definitely), to come back to the scratchbuild ones and to my build, that needs to go on again. As mentioned above, I used Jammydog 1 mm masking tape (the low tack version, blue, allowing little corrections) to outline the fairing. Because the upper part should be nearly invisible (it would be slightly visible if I made a build of the car before painting (photos 1, 2 ,3) but it is not on photo 7A or on photo 4, the day of the race, while the car is obviously painted), I applied Mr Surfacer 1200 only on this side, to get this nearly invisible limit. At least 2 coats were necessary. The 2nd one is not yet dry, so I can't be sure it will be OK after sanding. For the sanding, I used the great Tamiya sanding sponge, from 240 to 1500. I love them, but I use them dry and not wet. To remove the sanding dust, I use just my airbrush air, at high pressure. Working with them is very comfortable, and they have a long last life. I used one more time True Metal Silver to check, very good for that use. Photo 1: Notice the old outline (the kit's one) on the photo; It gives an idea of how the kit was wrong here... (it will become invisible after painting). You can see the Jammydog tape (blue) and the Mr Surfacer 1200 applied on the upper part. The photo was made after sanding but before check with True Metal. We could think it is OK, but... the photo 2, after True Metal, shows that the upper limit is still much too visible. After another sanding on the outline (I don't want to apply Mr Surfacer on True Metal), another coat of Mr Surfacer is applied. I think it should be OK, I will make another check using the same technic after next sanding step of the Mr Surfacer, that is not yet dry (even if the coat is thin, I prefer to wait at least 3 h before sanding). 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Most excellent careful work 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Dear Olivier (sigh ) today I will make an exception regarding my principles , not to show a stage of development , that´s not yet finished . I´ll post some photos in the next couple of hours so you can see my personal view at the fairing and the bodywork .It might be useful for you regarding the left side and how it could be connected inside . Because I´m not sure , if this thread will be continued with only two protagonists who actually build this model ( and being a slow builder sometimes myself ) we should do our best to show some possible solutions.Currently I´m thinking about a new construction of the frame , an difficult undertake indeed . Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Hannes, You sound discouraged - I hope I have misread you. We might be a bit sort of physical models. but I am actually excited about the electronic side for the first time, possibly ever. I have made a lot of progress in the last few days and the results look like they might be good enough to even satisfy this group. Still not sorted out the wheels !!! But have enough good quality alignment between a number of pictures, the reference lengths and drawing 2 to be feel it is likely to be closer than I have managed previously. Although it will sadly be a bit late for you and Olivier, I am hoping to to generate some sort of bodywork drawing to replace drawing 1. I will publish a taster in the next few days. My goal is only to stop when I have a 3-view drawing that we all agree is a good representation of the available information. There's always a chance for snags but there is a cause for hope. Look forward to seeing your photos soon. Regards Olivier, Tenacious as always - beginning to get to the end of the bodywork challenges I feel. Looking good 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 As I said before , it´s not yet finished and it still will take some days before I´m satisfied with my result . But it was important for me to show Olivier my version of the bodywork Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Looking good Hannes, the top view is very un-usual - we have so few references that its lines can still surprise us. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) Very nice and neat, Hannes, bravo! As for your calander (in the old Gangshow), I am surprised: your piece does not seem to come from the kit, as if you had got it from a 3D printer, fe. But I remember you told me it was not the case. I wonder how you get such a so neat aspect, giving a very different aspect (at this step, anyway) from my build, on which you can see the lot of body builder work done... While my Mr Surfacer was drying, I decided to check once more the tail shape, especially the position and dimensions of the rear louvres, before redoing them (they were damaged by all the work done in this area). To do the check, I used transfer paper on the photo 3 (modified Roy) at scale on my Macbook. If this check confirmed that the rear louvres were quite correct in position and dimension, it is the overhanging part of the body on the frame that has appeared to be still too long (4 mm, a lot!), while I had ever decreased it drastically... The consequence of this new modif was that my rear axle touched the vertical rear part of the arc: I had to remove there too 4 mm. Do we know the width and the height of this arc? I'm afraid no, because it is always hidden by the wheel. Photos of all this stuff: P.S: reading again my post and looking again my photos, I see that, despite this new 4 mm removal, the overhanging still seems to be too long. But the view angle is not the same (now, we know the importance of this parameter... ). In reality, it is maybe 1 mm still too long, but no more. Edited January 8, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph correction 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Dear Olivier this fairing was made out of the kit´s fairing .It´s a mixture of the metal Protar piece and added plastic stirps , a lot of glue and filler . It would have been much easyier for me if I only would have used the plastic fairing.But I wanted a stable foundation. Of course the rest of the bodywork must get altered too (reducing the body´s height , delaying the openings for the rear axis , another shortening of the rear ´s end and so on ) A lot of fine works still have to be done , before I´m satisfied with my fairing and it´s surrounding. But the main aspects like sizes and ratios point already in the right direction imho. I´m a bit frustated about the twisting of my camera´s eyes because there seems to be some frog-eye effects. Many greetings! Hannes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) Just to give an idea of the kit's tail and of its much too long ong overhanging, this photo of a build OOB (very nice, furthermore), taken in nearly the same view angle than the photo 3. Compare with my tracing paper... Notice that this must be a Protar kit, while the tyres are the Protar's one, right... Edited January 8, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph add 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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