Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Hannes]

Dear Square you are our hero !!! Many thanks,Im almost fainting...  Hannes

[Roy vd M.]

29 minutes ago, Hannes said:

Dear Roy,the kit does not Show any fuel pumps.The tank is directly connected with the carbouretors by a fuel pipe. In my opinion the louvres were made to cool down the gasoline in the tank.  Greetings!  Hannes

 

The kit not showing fuel pumps means... ehm... little to me in itself. I wonder why...

 

But suppose the kit is correct and the louvres were for gasoline cooling... why? How could the gasoline get hot? The exhaust pipes?

 

14 minutes ago, square said:

Don't know anything technical about cars, just enjoying this thread

 

Is this photo part of your collection

 

http://archivio.fototeca-gilardi.com/item/it/1/36032

 

Incredible find, no we didn't have that one! As Agatha Christie said... and then there were nine. 

 

Thank you very much and welcome to the thread. What an entry!

[Hannes]

Dear Roy , the vacuum caused by the blowers  should be enough ,to suck out the gasoline from the tank. And of Course the tank and it´s gasoline Needs to be cooled,because the engine´s heat goes to the rear. If the gasoline is cooler, more power will be unleashed.  But look at that Picture! It´s like finding the holy grail!  Hannes

[square]

without watermarks

 

[CrazyCrank]

Welcome to our new member Square, and his fantastic discovery

 

The utility of louvers on the bonnet is evident:

The engine compartment is like an oven, it cooks everything is under the hood: engine itself, wiring, intake and gasoline.

 

 Too hot engine and too hot gasoline are synonimous to poor performances, and lower reliability, decreased longevity

High temperature air carries less oxygen, so the combustion is bad, and performances decrease

I think Hannes is right too, when he says that the louvers on the rear of the car has the same function: reduce temperature of the gasoline in the tank, before it his sucked by carburteors

 

 

 

[Roy vd M.]

 

 

Has anyone else tried downloading a high-resolution specimen? It doesn't work on my computer, even with new flash. Maybe I should sent them an e-mail. I won't mind paying a bit for the photograph, if I understand the site correctly I'll be able to put it online and use a copyright text. The picture can then be used only in my post. Anyone an idea?

 

A few things that catch my attention right away while looking at this photo are:

 

- The vertical grille lines do have bends just below the '15' number. 

- The manual crank indeed seems to be situated slightly left hand side of the center of the horizontal car line (see its position versus the vertical grille lines). 

- The '15' number was indeed on the right bonnet. 

- Also on this photo, it covers the louvres slits. So it wasn't paint, for sure.

- There seems to be a large dent in the radiator housing. Based on the other photos there was no such dent on the left hand side. 

- The low body lines agree with out previous findings. 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

On 12/11/2016 at 10:13 PM, NickD said:

The other concern is directed to Olivier. The above analysis is only really good enough to urge caution. At the moment none of the lines for the body seem right so be cautious everyone who has scapel, saw and dremel in hand. I don't mind being wrong but I would hate to deliver bad news at some point that is right.

Sorry Nick, there were so many pics and new infos on the thread from 3 days, I did not see your work and comments. The problem for me is that I can't wait months of research hoping we will be sure of nearly everything. My kit is now ever well advanced, and I want it to be finished until next february, no more. So,  I take risks, I know, cutting, but I am sure I will be nearer from truth than if I don't change anything. I think I will be the first of this group to purpose a model much more accurate than all previous ones. Taking these risks is for me like being the first man walking on the moon: you try not to make too many mistakes, but you can sometimes do, as last time, when I cut the left side of the cockpit a bit too much. I have added a little section of plastic card and now, it's ok... It is a very exciting challenge, but all our (I should say your because I feel very ignorant compared to Roy, Thierry, and most of you) researchs, with nearly everyday a new surprise, a new discover, make it a bit easier.

I think my model will be a transition between the previous ones and most of yours, that, with more informations yet, will certainly be still better than mine.

 

The first thing I thought discovering this new photo (thanks square, it's great) is that the body colour seems very dark, nearly black!! Notice the high contrast between the 15 inscription and the body, and the same for the exhausts, much lighter... For me, whose intention has always been, in the lack of precise colour  reference, to paint burgundy, like on the box-art (I love it like that), the car, it should reinforce this idea...

 

I agree with you, Roy, most of the docs confirm the frame was body color and not black. It's a problem for me, it's a long time I made it black and changing now is still possible but complicated. I must make a decision about that, uneasy...

 Your comment about the leaf springs body color (this new doc is too very instructive,, as you said). Thierry mentioned not farer than yesterday that possibilty (on PM). As I am doing them now, this discover could change my intentions (I previoused to give them a burnt iron color).

I have to leave you now, but I will post my making-of leaf springs tomorrow morning.

All sleep well, forget for a few hours the 806 car... if possible!  

Olivier

 

 

[CrazyCrank]

36 minutes ago, Roy vd M. said:

 

 

Has anyone else tried downloading a high-resolution specimen? It doesn't work on my computer, even with new flash. Maybe I should sent them an e-mail. I won't mind paying a bit for the photograph, if I understand the site correctly I'll be able to put it online and use a copyright text. The picture can then be used only in my post. Anyone an idea?

 

A few things that catch my attention right away while looking at this photo are:

 

- The vertical grille lines do have bends just below the '15' number. 

- The manual crank indeed seems to be situated slightly left hand side of the center of the horizontal car line (see its position versus the vertical grille lines). 

- The '15' number was indeed on the right bonnet. 

- Also on this photo, it covers the louvres slits. So it wasn't paint, for sure.

- There seems to be a large dent in the radiator housing. Based on the other photos there was no such dent on the left hand side. 

- The low body lines agree with out previous findings. 

 

Hi chaps

 

In fact, the pictures Squares has posted if a larger view including picture 9 of the firts post of this thread.

Look at the man with long coat, who has his hands in his trousers pockets...

That doesn't deny the interest of this picture, of course

 

[Roy vd M.]

 

 

8 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

My kit is now ever well advanced, and I want it to be finished until next february, no more.

 

That is why I tried to get to Torino as soon as I could. I want you to be able to use my research findings. But alas, we will have to await Fiat's decision before (if) I can go to Torino.

 

8 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

I think I will be the first of this group to purpose a model much more accurate than all previous ones.

 

You've got that right.

 

8 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

I feel very ignorant compared to Roy, Thierry, and most of you)

 

Let's agree to disagree about that. I have a lot of respect for your input thus far. Without your contributions we wouldn't be where we are now. 

 

8 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

I think my model will be a transition between the previous ones and most of yours, that, with more informations yet, will certainly be still better than mine.

 

I can't argue with that. The more time we have (and we don't have a deadline, at least I certainly don't), the more realistic the results will be. That doesn't mean our models will be better, it just means we'll have more information at our disposal. But know for sure that you will have the first model using thorough research. You will surprise those who thought Italeri's kit is realistic. Don't forget to send us a copy of the Tamiya magazine article when finished, if you will 

 

8 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

The first thing I thought discovering this new photo (thanks square, it's great) is that the body colour seems very dark, nearly black!! Notice the high contrast between the 15 inscription and the body, and the same for the exhausts, much lighter... For me, whose intention has always been, in the lack of precise colour  reference, to paint burgundy, like on the box-art (I love it like that), the car, it should reinforce this idea...

 

I have good news for you... in my view the ONLY reliable source as to what colour this car was, Plinio Codognato, who most probably saw the car in person, drew it in approximately the same colour as is featured on Italeri's box. I think Italeri based the box art on Codognato's poster. I also like that colour a lot, by the way. We even named our daughter after that colour (Karmijn).

 

 

 

 

I think the box art is too dark though, burgundy as you say. It seems crimson would be a better guess. 

 

I can imagine Photos 1A, 2 and 3 were overexposed, perhaps to fetch more detail. 

 

4 minutes ago, CrazyCrank said:

In fact, the pictures Squares has posted if a larger view including picture 9 of the firts post of this thread.

Look at the man with long coat, who has his hands in his trousers pockets...

That doesn't deny the interest of this picture, of course

 

 

I amended the opening post of the thread 15 times or more since yesterday, to update all new photographs, drawings et cetera. 

 

So the photo is indeed new, and I made an enlargement in Gimp which I used in my previous post. 

[NickD]

Chaps,

 

Keeping up with this post is quite a challenge. Clearly there is a great difference between the "looking" I do and the "seeing" the rest of you achieve.Outstanding.

 

@Olivier de St Raph - no worries - was pretty sure time was not going to be your friend. I am not sure I am going to be too slow to contribute much to the above. I, like Roy, feel you are underselling the your work.  Also you, unlike the rest of us it appears, are actually building something!

 

Couple of other thoughts (If they are repeats, I would not be surprised, apologies if that is the case) -

• Photo 8 looks very heavily retouched - . Exhaust pipe, highlights on the rear chassis member and the boat-tail all look faked. I guess the exposure was not great from the very dark red.
• As someone in the gangshow thread said - it's going to be difficult to extract truth from 90 year photos. Camera optics, poor storage, printing, scanning, retouching all work against us. The fact you all "see" rather than "look" is really helpful.
• I love the fact you can see the heatshield through Bordino's  right arm in the "shopped" picture.
• The steering wheel in picture 9 appears to have its flat edge vertical but the wheels are straight?
• The very used look of the car in picture 9 is great with all the mud on the lower bodywork.

Regards

 

Nick

 

[Hannes]

Looking at our new Picture it really surprises me,that the old wind-shelter obviously was used.

I always believed ,a new bodywork was provided for the race.

The wind-shelter now is weld together with the bodywork and no rivets can be seen anymore.Maybe soldering also was used to get better transitions.

We now can rely on the prototype.

Anyway, the kit´s wind-shelter is wrong and has to be Extended towards it´s right side.Some corrections regarding angle and form are necessary  too.

Today we won a lot of certainty and that´s   very good News. Have a good night under a full moon!  Hannes

[Hannes]

However,not anyway  (sigh!) My English must get better...Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

 

Dear friends,

I have an insomnia, maybe because of that wonderful full moon we have that night (they say all what is said about full moon and insomnia is wrong...). So, would it be that the 806 torments my mind?

first of all, I want to thank you, Roy and Nick, for your kind words. 

On a PM, CC suggested, without remembering where he found that information (if I understood well) that ther should have been 17 copies of 806. I was very surprised by this information, while I thought there was only one. Does someone knows precisely the number of copies Fiat made of that car? If really there were 17, so Agnelli was really totally crazy, deciding to put all of them to destruction...

5 hours ago, CrazyCrank said:

The vertical grille lines do have bends just below the '15' number.

yes, right, but this bending is present on the kit's vertical lines (maybe should it be a little more). Look at the box-art just above, you will notice that the kit's vertical lines grille have this bending. I would say these lines are nearly right on the kit (maybe the rightest aspect of that piece!). John suggested that the grille was flat, but if you look at it, it is not really flat. It's just that it is not wide enough. If it was wider, the bending of horizontal spokes would appear more clearly.

 

5 hours ago, CrazyCrank said:

Also on this photo, it covers the louvres slits. So it wasn't paint, for sure.

Bravo Roy for this very good observation! I would never have imagined that this number was not painted. Now, it's clear!

 

Roy, I don't find back where you suggested that, but I am not sure to see the number 15 at the rear of the car on the photo 3 (especially the "1"is totally missing, and the 5 would be very large, I think it is an artefact due to the old photo).

5 hours ago, CrazyCrank said:

There seems to be a large dent in the radiator housing

Sorry, but don't understand what you mean there. CC, if you do, can you explain me in french, please?

 

5 hours ago, CrazyCrank said:

The low body lines agree with out previous findings. 

yes, sure. Look how Bordino seems to be tall in the car. It nearly looks as a child car (I exagerate). This reinforce my decision to cut 5mm height up to the rear wheels, and 4mm after, on the body piece. I previous to cut around 2 mm on the grille and the radiator, because we can see that the difference of height goes decreasing going front.

 

6 hours ago, CrazyCrank said:

In fact, the pictures Squares has posted if a larger view including picture 9 of the firts post of this thread.

Look at the man with long coat, who has his hands in his trousers pockets...

sorry, CC, did not understand what you meant there too. Can you say it in french, please? 

 

5 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

That is why I tried to get to Torino as soon as I could. I want you to be able to use my research findings

Very kind of you, Roy, that thought, I appreciate that very much. Maybe the book we are waiting for (did you get it?) will bring us something, but I am a bit sceptical...

 

5 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

Without your contributions we wouldn't be where we are now. 

Thank you for that too. I contribute following my skills. As you all, I try to improve my sense of observation, and I have a steel willing to do things as well as possible. What I meant was that my skills on mechanics and classic cars are very poor compared with yours. For example, I even don't know how an engine works, and I was very impressed by your debates about the crank, Supercharger etc. But I assume that, each one of us brings what he may be bring, and all together, my friend, I repeat that, we form a real dream team.

 

6 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

Don't forget to send us a copy of the Tamiya magazine article when finished, if you will 

If the editor in chief allows me, no problem, I will post my article. I sent him an mail yesterday, in which I suggested to publish an entire book, because an article can't pretend covering all the aspects of such a project! After all, Tamiya made that for some aircrafts (F4-U Corsair, fe). It will be a real challenge for me to have to summarize in 7 pages all what is to say on this kit, don't you think?

 

6 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

It seems crimson would be a better guess. 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Crimson Humbrol 20 is the color I chose, but it is darker than Codognato's poster, closer from the box-art color. I am still wondering if I maintain this esthetic choice. When I began that kit, I never imagined it would take me so far (I did not know anyone of you!) and I made this color choice because it's what made me choose this kit instead of the Mef. But now that I am with you all on this challenge of making an as accurate car as possible, I have doubts. And in the same time, the color is probably the parameter we will never be sure to know precisely (I hope I'm wrong). As I said previously, when you look at the last photo, the car seems to be black (and very glossy). Even supposing it was underexposed, you have that huge contrast that contradicts IMHO an italian red and suggests a quite dark color. But I know every doc contradicts another one (we will get mad with that).

6 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

I made an enlargement in Gimp

what does it mean, Gimp?

 

5 hours ago, NickD said:

Also you, unlike the rest of us it appears, are actually building something!

Very kind, but some of us are building... something else, like CC with his amazing Bugatti, or VT with his wonderful pilot sculpture. I want to thank them for spending time while they are focused on other works, even if they intend to build the kit later...

 

5 hours ago, NickD said:

Photo 8 looks very heavily retouched

Totally agree with this, for me this picture is NOT a reference doc and I take it for what it is, an artist picture, not useful for us.

 

5 hours ago, NickD said:

The steering wheel in picture 9 appears to have its flat edge vertical but the wheels are straight?

I noticed that too, very surprising....

 

3 hours ago, Hannes said:

the kit´s wind-shelter is wrong and has to be Extended towards it´s right side.Some corrections regarding angle and form are necessary  too.

yes, I agree. In particular, the kit's windshield is too small in height and width compared with this photo. See the box-art just above, it is obvious!

 

Ok, I'm gonna try to sleep a little...

All the best to all

 

Olivier

Edited November 15, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Can't sleep, definitely...

10 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

I can imagine Photos 1A, 2 and 3 were overexposed, perhaps to fetch more detail. 

 

Roy, my opinion is that, on these photos, the car was NOT YET PAINTED. That's why the body is so light.

The second point is that you have no contrast, no separation between the grille and the case (right word?), that would be, as my nephew suggested before (and Hannes had the same feeling) a unique piece. The painters created the contrast by painting the body with masks to avoid painting the grille, that was remained steel.

Look the inversion of light and dark colors we have between these 1A and 2 photos and ALL the photos made at the race moment. For example, the rod in front of the grille, that seemed to be nearly black, is now much lighter than the body, especially on this photo 9, but also on 7A, fe! Can't we imagine that this rod has been painted in a light color, in the same time than the body?? But what color? I 'd like to know it...

 

 

 

 

and in the same order of idea, the exhausts, that seemed black or nearly on the 1A and 2 photos, appear a lighter than the body on photo 9, but also on ALL OTHER PHOTOS (4, 6, 7, 8).... In particular, look again at 7A: I would imagine a kind of flat not too dark steel with a light weathering for these exhausts and for the rod too... Comments?

 

 

Edited November 15, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph
addition

[Totally Mad Olivier]

LEAF SPRINGS:

 

My first version, needing ever a quite important preparation work on Italeri pieces (on Protar, these springs were very different)

 

 

 

As I asked (on PM) to Thierry to make comments on this, he suggested with right to improve the rebound clips, sending 2 very helpful photos:

 

 

So, I removed the relief wrong and the nut on the side (wrong too), and made new rebound clips:

 

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

and now, the question is for me to decide what color for these leaf springs??

body color, as suggested by drawing 5?

steel? burnt iron, suggesting corrosion of the steel? 

Or like the Mef's ones?

considering that, as Roy, my 806 takes place a few days before the race (as him, I won't add the 15 number on the bonnets, only the painted ones at the rear)

Esthetically, I would prefer, especially if I decide (more and more probable) to paint my frame body color, to let them steel with a weathering on it (burnt umber Vallejo, maybe). After all, they were steel, in the beginning, before being painted (if they have been...)

 

Ok, I leave you now, hope all these night's comments were not too boring and too long...

 

Very friendly to all the team!

 

Olivier

 

P.S: Sam, where are you?? Do you read us? I miss you! You wanted to go to Torino, you should see that with Roy...

 

Edited November 15, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph
addition

[Totally Mad Olivier]

P.S: I took the liberty to post these photos of Jeremy's very nice models, to give an idea of how colors may appear in black and white. I know this is not a scientific approach but it gives a little idea: 

 

 

 

 

To each one to draw (or not) conclusions about the exhausts and body color... Ah, if we could do the contrary, get right colors from b n w photos... Aren't they softwares trying to do that, like for colourised (not always very good) old series fe Zorro? (I am still a big child!)

 

All the best to all and thank you to Jeremy, hoping he is still reading us...

[CrazyCrank]

Olivier, in the first post you did at early morning, you quoted me CC four times (the four first quotes): It is a mistake...not me who said that

 

About the 17 builds of the Fiat 806, I'ad probably aggregated disparate infos, that UI cannot retrieve this morning, reading the Net: very probably a crazy issue ! sorry !

 

On 14/11/2016 at 9:52 PM, CrazyCrank said:

In fact, the pictures Squares has posted if a larger view including picture 9 of the firts post of this thread.

Look at the man with long coat, who has his hands in his trousers pockets...

sorry, CC, did not understand what you meant there too. Can you say it in french, please? 

 

In French: la photo postée par Square, en la comparant avec cellles qui porte le n° 9 dans le premier post de Roy qui ouvre ce thread, semble être un surensemble de la photo 9, il suffit de constater qu'on a le même type avec un long manteau, les mains dans les poches, que l'on voit en entier sur la photo de Square et à motieé sur celle de Roy"

En fait rien d'étonnant, car Roy a modifié l'image de Square, en la réduisant sous un éditeur de dessins ("The Gimp") pour la recadrer, et l'a incorporée dans son premier post en l'éditant a posteriori

 

I apologize for this long sentence in French, that whas dedicated to light Olivier about what I meant !

 

Edited November 15, 2016 by CrazyCrank

[Totally Mad Olivier]

and, to give a better idea, my Crimson red (not yet weathered) on the underbody... Notice that, when turning it in b and w, it looks much darker (as we could imagine) and closer from the photos we have, in particular this photo 9, that really brings a new look on the car.

More, I don't remember who, on the Gangshow, suggested that the car should not be too bright. What do you think of brightness on this photo 9? Isn't it a gloss finish? My underbody is not glossy enough at all compared with the photo 9... Now, let's not forget that the race day was a rainy day, it may explain too the extreme brightness on this photo 9, but also photos 4 and 7A...

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

32 minutes ago, CrazyCrank said:

Olivier, in the first post you did at early morning, you quoted me CC four times (the four first quotes): It is a mistake...not me who said that

I know, Thierry, it's not me who made the mistake, it's the thread, and I couldn't make the correction...

 

For the photo 9, I don't understand, we know it is the same photo, Roy just put it there as he did for the other ones, to collect all docs together... Doesn't matter, anyway... 

Edited November 15, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

[CrazyCrank]

54 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

 

Yes, very probably !

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

New experience: with my Mac book Apple Photos application, I have lightened very much this photo 9, to help me making a decision about the frame (black or body color?). Indeed, if you consider (as I do) that photos 1, 2 and 3 were made before painting, then you can't consider them as an argument to say the frame was body color. 

Now, how to decide?

Among the drawings, only one IMHO may be considered as a reference: the one Roy posted, made by Codognato, official designer for Fiat: in this, the frame is body.

Among the photos, only this one, lightened, may give an indication: maybe I'm wrong but, on this lightened photo, I would say the frame is... body color (I don't see any difference with the body). So, it's decided, I will paint back my frame Crimson... except if a new information brings me the proof of the contrary very soon (after, it will be too late).

 

Edited November 15, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph
correction

[Jnkm13]

Hi Olivier,

 

Yes, definitely still following all these posts. Amazed by the enthusiasm you guys have.

 

Like you, I'm hoping Sam is still following. His insights and helpfulness is sorely missed. And i'm also missing his updates on his Meph.

 

Regards,

Jeremy