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Roy vd M.

Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

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Yes, indeed, it's beautiful. I have seen the same in a show of old cars at St Raphaël last summer. And Woody Allen used the same (I think) in his  great movie "Magic in the moonlight " (in which some of the nicest views where taken in the Esterel mountains close from St Raphaël)

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1 hour ago, sharknose156 said:

@Black Knight  dear Black Knight, this alfa looks great where did your friend commission the car ? what engine did he use ? 

Sorry thats not the Ferrari Alfa.

That one is an original, been in his family since 1934

 

I think I only have video of the Ferrari Alfa, after it was painted green.

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I would love building such a beautiful car, does someone know if the kit exists? 

IMHO, it is one of the most beautiful car ever produced, with a timeless design...

BK, your friend is a lucky man!

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937525FD-2390-4C43-881D-818167E4C860_zps

 

I made this photo at St Raphaël "défilé d'élégance automobile " last summer, the 6/08 precisely.

It is not exactly the same, I even prefer this one, for her nicer calander (IMHO)

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Dear Olivier the only kit I know was made by Airfix but only in 1/32 scale. And of course Pocher made some beautiful Alfa Romeos of that time.Today you have to pay about 500 Euros for one of these impressive 1/8 kits.I´m not sure , if there´s a diecast version on the market (Bburago or similar in 1/18) Many greetings!  Hannes

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F12E0455-BE5B-46C2-BD52-92A8BE22F8A3_zps

 

and a rear view, not bad too... OK, I stop there, we must come back to our subject... ;)

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Thank you Hannes. I don't understand why manufacturers don't purpose such beautiful cars in their catalog. 

A brand like Tamiya, instead of creating a new version at  1/48 of the Tomcat, that ever exists at all scales (themselves had a 1/72 and a 1/32 scale version, and many 1/48 versions ever exist from other brands)  could broaden its horizons, IMHO! When they create a new car kit, it is always a recent one. Classic cars are the poor relation of model making, pity!!

AND THAT'S WHY, DESPITE ALL DEFECTS OF THE 806 ITALERI KIT, WE CAN BE GRATEFUL TO THIS BRAND TO GIVE US THE OPPORTUNITY TO BUILD IT, especially at 1/12 scale, that is in my view a good compromise scale, between 1/8 and 1/24...

And this could be the conclusion of my article, if I remain on that solution...

with a call to manufacturers to be MORE IMAGINATIVE

 

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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20 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

seems the spokes should be black, according to everyone else. Have we reached a conclusion about that already... could they have been anything else than black?)

Roy,

if you were talking about the grille spokes, I think (maybe I am wrong) that they were not black but something like steel, and it is so that I painted them... And I prefer them like that, more esthetic IMHO

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Another important topic imho is the heat shield over the right exhaust pipe and how it was fixed. It seems to me as it was fixede to another sheet of metal,which was bended over the bodywork´s right opening. This sheet sheet also seems to be secured by a screw or tiny bolt on it´s left end.

I would like to hear your opinions regarding this topic !  Hannes

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Dear Hannes,   I do believe you are correct!  Well spotted, sir!

 

The heat-shield appears to be u-shaped rather than the angular kit solution. If you look carefully to the left of Bordino's elbow in pic 2 , you will notice that the heat-shield appears to have been cut back to allow for the rise of the exhaust pipe, so it looks like it was a bit of a "bodge-it and scarper" quick fix. 

I would imagine that the shield would have been bolted/riveted from the inside of the cockpit.

 

Cheers, H

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13 minutes ago, harveyb258 said:

Dear Hannes,   I do believe you are correct!  Well spotted, sir!

 

The heat-shield appears to be u-shaped rather than the angular kit solution. If you look carefully to the left of Bordino's elbow in pic 2 , you will notice that the heat-shield appears to have been cut back to allow for the rise of the exhaust pipe, so it looks like it was a bit of a "bodge-it and scarper" quick fix. 

I would imagine that the shield would have been bolted/riveted from the inside of the cockpit.

 

Cheers, H

 

I agree with you two, gents :)

 

It's clearly visible on photo 2 and drawings 3 and 6

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@Olivier de St Raph I meant the spokes of the wheels. But even Drawing 5 indicates they were black, as were the rims, so I think I'll just leave it at that.

 

@Hannes Frankly I do not understand what you mean. You often try to explain something that is difficult to say in words (or to understand). Apparently Harvey and Thierry do know what you are saying but I don't. It would be really handy if you made a simple drawing indicating what you meant. If you cannot upload it, then try sending it per e-mail to me and I will upload it for you. Or you could use Facebook. If you have an open Facebook-account you can quite easily have your pictures shown here.

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Dear Harvey ,I agree with you ,this shield should be removable quickly due possible repairs of the exhaust pipe ,wrapping measures and so on..Many greetings  Hannes

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Dear Roy, in my opinion this semi-round heat shield is connected with another sheet of metal (maybe welded together )which has the duty to fix the shield to the body.Because it is hard to remove the shield if the screws ,which should fix it are situated behind a (hot  !!) exhaust pipe,maybe the fixation was delayed by using the other sheet of metal.

If I look closely to the photos of the pre-race car there seems to be  this additional sheet directly above our heat shield . Because only one screw can be seen ( under the driver´s seat ) maybe this bearing sheet just hangs  over the body´s right opening after beeing bended in shape. I´m not sure about this.    Hannes

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On 27/12/2016 at 0:45 PM, Roy vd M. said:

Things to do:

 

 

 

1. Visit Centro Storico Fiat (after approval, hopefully January 2017). Roy.

 

2. Check with Fiat Powertrain Technologies regarding blueprints (reminder). Roy

 

3. Check with Cinecitta Luce regarding Photos 10 and 11 and possibly survived original film reel (reminder). Roy.

 

4. Check with Museum of Speed, Monza (reminder). Roy.

 

5. Try to get a flatter version of Photo 21 (Olivier could you follow this up, or could you tell me the contact that sent you?) Olivier.

 

6. Try to get a larger version of Photo 22 Olivier.

7. Ask if there is more to Literature Excerpt 1 (A. Tito Anselmi's book) which I'm almost 100% sure there is. Try to get the remainder Olivier.

 

8. Ask who is the author of Literature Excerpt 2 and if there were no more than two pages. If there is more, to try getting the remainder Olivier.

9. Please feel free to add to this list (=tell me) the loose ends you guys are waiting for. All.

Roy,

I didn't read yet the last posts, but I come back on this recent asking you made:

 

5. The photo 21 was a part of S. Faures We transfer sending. I am gonna reproduce what he said to me about his sendings.

As all docs sent kindly by him, photo 21 has a given quality (some were excellent, as the engine drawings, some weren't). SF sent me all what he found on the 806.

Is there a better version of photo 22? Maybe...

6. Same reply. If I remember well, this little photo was included in an old article sent by SF.

7. Like you, I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to find in Anselmi ´s book, considering the number of pages of the book. I will ask SF if he has the book or from where he got the excerpts (I am afraid of forgetting a question when I contact him, there are so many).

This 1000 pages book is certainly a good lead, pity, it is quite expensive, around 150€, if I remember what you said .

8. I think this 2nd excerpt was coming from SF too. Roy, feel free to contact him directly, as you speak french. His mail adress is in end of his book. You are a better finder than me, and I am sure you will get more from him than I did.

 

All the best.

 

Olivier

 

P.S: been visiting Sarasota Classic car museum, nice but nothing that will help us in our searchs... and no Chevy Bel Air. Maybe I will go visiting a private museum where I am staying now, Fort Myers Beach. I will keep you informed if I have something very interesting...

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Dear Olivier , Now you are really " obsessed " congratulations and many thanks for this interesting article !  Hannes

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Bonsoir Olivier,
 
Je suis ravi de votre email, et ça me fait très plaisir d'aborder ce sujet avec vous. J'ai écrit de nombreux articles et quelques livres sur l'histoire de l'automobile, et les Fiat de Grand Prix restent les plus chères à mon cœur!
Au risque de vous décevoir, je ne vais pas pouvoir vous apporter de réponses précises mais je vais au moins essayer de vous aider.
 
J'ai commencé par aller parcourir le thread et j'avoue avoir été estomaqué par le niveau de détail recherché par les maquettistes dont vous faites partie (il y a donc des plus fous que moi... :-))
 
Pour commencer, j'ai peur que vous (vos collègues) soyez très déçus par une visite au Centro Storico Fiat: ils sont très gentils et très aidants, mais pour des sujets aussi anciens il n'ont pas grand chose (ou alors ils ne savent pas où chercher). La seule chose intéressante que j'y ai trouvée ce sont les albums photos de l'entreprises Fiat: je vais vous envoyer ce qui concerne la 806 mais il n'y a rien que vous ne connaissiez déjà.
En revanche, un point très intéressant pour vous, ce sont les archives "plans" conservées par FPT (Fiat Powertrain Technologies), ce qui est différent (et indépendant) du Centro Storico. Ce sont eux qui ont tous les plans d'époques et donc ils pourront surement vous retrouver les plans de la Fiat 806. J'avais un excellent contact chez FPT (Giovanni Maiorana) mais malheureusement il est parti et je ne sais pas qui l'a remplacé. A tout hasard je vous indique les coordonnées complètes que j'avais à l'époque (jusqu'en 2010). Il vous faudra trouver qui a remplacé Giovanni. Par contre je ne suis pas sûr que ce soit ouvert au public, peut-être qu'il faut simplement leur indiquer précisément votre recherche: 
 
 
Product Engineering
New Technologies Implementation
FIAT POWERTRAIN TECHNOLOGIES S.p.A.
Corso Settembrini 40, 10135 Torino , Italia
Tel. +39 011 0033317, Fax +39 011 0038428
Cell +39 335 724 3467 
www.fptpowertrain.com     
 
En résumé:
Question 1: voir avec FPT pour récupérer les plans
Question 2: je suis désolé mais je suis incapable de vous répondre. Ne vous fiez pas trop à des comparaisons avec la Mefistofeles: c'était un bricolage réalisé par un Anglais avec un moteur d'aviation, rien à voir avec la qualité extrêmement élevée des Fiat de Grand Prix réalisées par l'usine.
Question 3: incapable de vous répondre également
Question 4: je pense pour ma part (c'est par expérience, ce n'est pas une preuve) que le rouge des Fiat de l'époque était un rouge qui tendait un peu vers le marron (il faut que vous vous basiez sur les Alfa Romeo de course de l'époque qui aurait conservé leur couleur originale), presqu'un rouge brique un peu foncé. Surtout pas de rouge Ferrari (quelle horreur) et même le rouge framboise ne me parait pas très approprié.
 
Je serai très honoré que mon livre soit mentionné dans votre article, et au cas où vous mettrez une petite introduction historique sur la voiture je pourrai, si vous le souhaitez, la relire pour vous dire ce que j'en pense.
 
Je vous envoie par wetransfer tout ce que je possède sur la 806.
 
Bon courage, je serai très curieux de voir le résultat de tout cela.
Bon dimanche et à bientôt,
 
Sébastien Faurès
 
 
 
Message sent sent by SF in reply to mine last 19/11. I have cancelled the name of the product engineering, to SF asking.
Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Photo 2 shows this additional sheet imho, It must have been very thin,because the outlines can be hardly seen. It seems to been slipped under the sharp edge of the fairing (a small gap can be seen at this point)  Hannes

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2 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Roy,

I didn't read yet the last posts, but I come back on this recent asking you made:

 

5. The photo 21 was a part of S. Faures We transfer sending. I am gonna reproduce what he said to me about his sendings.

As all docs sent kindly by him, photo 21 has a given quality (some were excellent, as the engine drawings, some weren't). SF sent me all what he found on the 806.

Is there a better version of photo 22? Maybe...

6. Same reply. If I remember well, this little photo was included in an old article sent by SF.

7. Like you, I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to find in Anselmi ´s book, considering the number of pages of the book. I will ask SF if he has the book or from where he got the excerpts (I am afraid of forgetting a question when I contact him, there are so many).

This 1000 pages book is certainly a good lead, pity, it is quite expensive, around 150€, if I remember what you said .

8. I think this 2nd excerpt was coming from SF too. Roy, feel free to contact him directly, as you speak french. His mail adress is in end of his book. You are a better finder than me, and I am sure you will get more from him than I did.

 

All the best.

 

Olivier

 

P.S: been visiting Sarasota Classic car museum, nice but nothing that will help us in our searchs... and no Chevy Bel Air. Maybe I will go visiting a private museum where I am staying now, Fort Myers Beach. I will keep you informed if I have something very interesting...

You might want to check out the Collier Collection at the Revs Institute in Naples.

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6 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

You might want to check out the Collier Collection at the Revs Institute in Naples.

Is it still open to the public?

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28 minutes ago, vontrips said:

Is it still open to the public?

 

Yes

 

It's open three days a week by advanced reservation only.

 

I called them today to confirm they will be open tomorrow (12/31), next Tuesday, and next Thursday. 

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4 hours ago, Endeavor said:

ou might want to check out the Collier Collection at the Revs Institute in Naples

Funny! That's the one I was talking about (I thought it was at FM).

We go there tomorrow (our host kindly booked it for us). 

It looks good ! 

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9 hours ago, Hannes said:

Another important topic imho is the heat shield over the right exhaust pipe and how it was fixed. It seems to me as it was fixede to another sheet of metal,which was bended over the bodywork´s right opening. This sheet sheet also seems to be secured by a screw or tiny bolt on it´s left end.

I would like to hear your opinions regarding this topic !  Hannes

Yep, first thing that struck me when I looked at the first period pics. No doubt bent over the nearest lamppost (in true Italian tradition!). The PE part is junk and Coke cans are your friend. I love the way Italeri spent so long making these useless PE parts when they could have been looking for the original Protar tyre moulds! :)

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