Roy vd M. Posted November 13, 2016 Author Share Posted November 13, 2016 (edited) Hannes I'm looking forward to it! Meanwhile I found another photograph of the Fiat. It seems all our findings are correct and there are no important new things we learn from the photo: (Just a little joke... hope you'll appreciate a bit of humor after all of these serious matters) Edited November 13, 2016 by Roy vd M. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Roy, perfectly clear, thanks for the clarification Hannes, also thanks for making that clear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Roy, had you noticed the headlights. I hadn't spotted them before. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted November 13, 2016 Author Share Posted November 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, NickD said: Roy, had you noticed the headlights. I hadn't spotted them before. Lol @Hannes Thank you for these wonderful drawings and the information. The bottom drawings are clearly colored versions of Drawing 1. But what is really interesting to me is the top drawing! This is most probably based on Photo 1 (mind the Wheel hub positions), with two major differences: - Where is Bordino?? - The '15' number is on Hannes' picture where it isn't in Photo 1. Somewhere in the Gangshow topic someone mentioned that Bordino was probably 'shopped' into Photo 1. We may now have proof that that assumption is true. Or do you guys think that Photo 1 is the unmodified image? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 On Picture 1 Bordino´s arm is part of the bodywork! The gaps behind the steering Lever also cannot be found. Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Sorry,his leg! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Dear Olivier, if you want to wrap strings around your springs, I can give you some good advices. Never wrap them directly around them ! Always the Color of the sprigs will shine through,especially at the spring´s steps! And that Looks awful! So you must prepare These parts by giving them a Basic Color! I strongly suggest a brownish duct tape for parcels ,cut to 2mm wide stripesÍt´s better than painting,because if something goes wrong with your wrapping,you can easily remove it and start from scratch. Use very,very tiny Drops of superglue to secure this strings on the underside of the spring. When finished,,soak the strings with clear lacquer,so the strings are glued together. Greetings! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCrank Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Dear Hannes, it should be noticed that, contrary to the Mef, nobody here has already seen wrapping (cord, leather or any material you want) around the leaf springs ot the Cortsa 806. I think that, in case of doubt, it's better to abstain (professional deformation !) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Dear Crazy Crank yes,you are right! I made my springs out of a bronze alloy and this Looks much better ,than beeing wrapped by strings ! Many greetings! Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vontrips Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Roy vd M. said: Lol @Hannes Thank you for these wonderful drawings and the information. The bottom drawings are clearly colored versions of Drawing 1. But what is really interesting to me is the top drawing! This is most probably based on Photo 1 (mind the Wheel hub positions), with two major differences: - Where is Bordino?? - The '15' number is on Hannes' picture where it isn't in Photo 1. Somewhere in the Gangshow topic someone mentioned that Bordino was probably 'shopped' into Photo 1. We may now have proof that that assumption is true. Or do you guys think that Photo 1 is the unmodified image Roy, that was me that suggested Bordini being 'comped' in. I wouldn't suggest 'shopped' as Photoshop is at least 70 years out of our time frame! You guys will have to trust my judgement on this, but I am 100% sure photo 2 and 1 were shot at the same time and in the same location. Checkout the position of the wheel nuts. Photo 2 the car has been wheeled back by 500mm. Not convinced? Check out the marks on the floor in front of the back wheel. It's still there, but subject to darkroom manipulation. I still believe the above horizon line area has been whited out using either darkroom 'sponging' and 'dodging' techniques, or paint on print adjustment using white gouache. Without doubt, over 90 years of fiddling has changed our reference in this instance considerably. I instinctively known Bordino has been added here (and I'm not even a modelling Diva! :)). Wrong exposure, wrong position and scale etc, incorrect shadows from his arm - the list is endless. On top of that, note the lower louvres that differ between the pics. I think both images have been heavily reworked by old fashioned gouache paint techniques, but I'd put money on the louvres being added in pic 1 - just because they are aweful! As for those stupid headlights added in the book shot, just burn that image from your memory now and pretend you never saw it! The book colour illustration from photo 1; what can I say, apart from it looks like my 5 year olds best attempt with her colour crayons! How did it come about and what research material did they have? Probably printed in the 50s? By then, Fiat (on their knees) would have publicised that dodgy made up photo with Italian hero Bordino at the wheel. Note, the illustrator had trouble inventing the seat that would have been behind the driver, it's totally fantasy rubbish. For further info; IHMO, photo 2 shows the defacto seat for the car. Nothing like the kit seat - quite horrible in my eye, but the slumping, rounded nature of the leatherwork is spot on! Edited November 14, 2016 by vontrips 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 (edited) No joke this time... we have another source! I noticed that the back part of the car in Hannes' top drawing was lower than in Drawing 1. So I decided to make a comparison. In this comparison, the front wheels match exactly as well as does the tail line of the body. I'll call the new source Drawing 4 and I'll add it to the opening post. Here the result: A few things that are interesting. In Drawing 4: 1. The rear section is clearly lower (not only top line, also bottom line) than in Drawing 1. That's in line with our findings. 2. The rear wheels are situated a bit more toward the back. This is in line with Drawing 2: 3. The steering wheel is more toward the back. 4. The bonnet is still high (wrong, according to our findings). 5. The windscreen is lower (perhaps the artist intended to achieve a more 'horizontally stretched' look of the car). 6. The grille is more slanted, similar to Drawing 2. As a result, the radiator filler cap is more toward the back. 7. The gas filler cap is put more to the front. 8. The hand brake lever is smaller. And probably there's more. But I'm happy to have another piece of reference material! Quote You guys will have to trust my judgement on this, but I am 100% sure photo 2 and 1 were shot at the same time and in the same location. Checkout the position of the wheel nuts. Photo 2 the car has been wheeled back by 500mm. Not convinced? Check out the marks on the floor in front of the back wheel. It's still there, but subject to darkroom manipulation. Nice perception, as always. Quote I still believe the above horizon line area has been whited out using either darkroom 'sponging' and 'dodging' techniques, or paint on print adjustment using white gouache. Without doubt, over 90 years of fiddling has changed our reference in this instance considerably. I instinctively known Bordino has been added here (and I'm not even a modelling Diva! :)). Wrong exposure, wrong position and scale etc, incorrect shadows from his arm - the list is endless. Ok I'm convinced. Good to have found a source photo in Hannes' library, I'll add it to the list. I will also post a better version of Photo 1 AND the new Drawing 4. Quote For further info; IHMO, photo 2 shows the defacto seat for the car. Nothing like the kit seat - quite horrible in my eye, but the slumping, rounded nature of the leatherwork is spot on! Not seen Protar's version (You may have noticed that I'm not giving much credit to Italeri for their reworking of this kit) but Hannes' Photo 1 does show a nicely shaped seat. I tried to compare to Photo 2 but must look more closely. Edited November 14, 2016 by Roy vd M. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 (edited) In Photo 1 as we knew it until today, Mr Bordino was blocking the view to the lefthand lining of the body. With him out of view, it is clear to see it was very much curved and that the body line 'from wheel to wheel' behind the driver was higher than the lefthand body line mentioned above. It can also be seen in Photo 4. Protar did not use these lines in their kit if I interpret finished kit photos correctly (unfortunately the kit still has to arrive so I can't know for sure). If my preliminary thoughts about the kit in this respect are correct, the kit will need correction (!). Who could have thought that Edit: the kit may be better shaped than I thought, looking at Jnkm13's nice Fiat 806 end photos. Edit 2: Olivier was apparently busy on this subject. Great stuff, didn't realize you had started until I was thrown in the middle of the issue by the 'new' Photo 1. Anyway, I just made a few amendments to the opening post: - The updated Photo 1 (including larger black & white-photo and new photo uploaded by Hannes) was included. - Drawing 4 was added. - Both Engine drawings were added ('Engine drawing 1' and a brighter and higher contrast version of 'Engine drawing 2'). - Darker version (but very useful, compare the number '15' on the bonnet!) of Photo 7 was added. Edited November 14, 2016 by Roy vd M. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 The next issue has probably been spotted and dealt with before, but just to be sure: Compare the size of the louvres placed over the rear wheels (I call them 'rear wheel louvres'). All photos except photo 8 indicate that those louvres were tall. According to photo 8 they were very small. I think photo 8 was amended in this respect, which would also explain the rounded exhaust tip. This too is probably incorrect. Tall 'rear wheel' louvres + probably squarish exhaust tip: ] Small 'rear wheel' louvres + rounded exhaust tip: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Dear Crazy Crank,I changed my mind regarding the covering of the springs. It was raining in Milano that autumn day. There´s no reason not to believe that the springs had to be protected from rain and dirt on this day.,of Course not by hemp strings,but waxed leather stripes look suited for me. Unfortunately we don´t have a clear evidence for or against my theory.Maybe further Research will help! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 25 minutes ago, Hannes said: It was raining in Milano that autumn day. There´s no reason not to believe that the springs had to be protected from rain and dirt on this day.,of Course not by hemp strings,but waxed leather stripes look suited for me. Unfortunately we don´t have a clear evidence for or against my theory.Maybe further Research will help! Hannes I'll make it easier for me and intend to try to represent the car a few days before the race. So, no protection. Assuming you'll try to represent the car as it was on the starting grid, that might lead to interesting slight differences between models. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 Mainly for my own (later) comparative studies I here show a video + screenshot of the 1936 Italian Grand Prix; at 14 seconds there is a view that is comparable to photo 5. To begin I'll compare the 'fronton' triangle of the main stand's roof. The Youtube video: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Hello everybody ! John andRoy mentioned the drver´s seat. If you take a closer look,you will see,that the material of the seat itself is different compared with the stripe of smooth leather,that fixes the seat to it´s Hood. For me this seems to be suede leather and it´s structure does not Show a random scar Formation,it seems to be a stiched pattern. Some hem-strings also can be seen(like the Mef),separating the seat´s parts. Maybe we can find out more,if we compare this seat with other seats of this period. Many greetings! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 (edited) Hello guys, well, I am very impressed by the vitality of this thread! We really do have a dream team, there. Time is lacking to me to reply now but I will do it as soon as possible. Anyway, congratulations to all for your amazing will. This thread is aptly named. I prepare a little tuto about the leaf springs, will try to post it tomorrow... All the best to all Olivier Edited November 14, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph correction 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Dear Roy all of the kit´s louvres are wrong regarding their angles and size. We should remove them without any bad conscience. I´m not yet completely shure,what construction will be the best to replace them.Although I´m a fan of the Doors , I probably won´t break through to the other side this time. Of Course they have to be made hollow inside,.A combination made out of brass sheet and tiny styrene stripes could be a possible solution. If they were blackened somewhat inside,there could be an Illusion of depth. Greetings! Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Regarding the louvres, I would say: 1) agree with Roy, they are too small on photo 8 (I am sure the exhausts are wrong too, they must be squarred and not round) 2) these louvres are not placed at the same level on left and right side. They are closer from the cockpit on left side 3) It is curious, on every photos, the left ones look as if they were neither front neither rear opened, as if it was just a hollow, a hole. Do you think it's possible? 4) On the right side, they seem to be front opened 16 hours ago, Roy vd M. said: . The rear wheels are situated a bit more toward the back. This is in line with Drawing 2: It is exactly what I saw when I placed my kit on the drawing 2 up view (see my photos on Gangshow p. 43) but the difference is light and I decided not to change it for so few... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 4 hours ago, Hannes said: (...) the drver´s seat. If you take a closer look,you will see,that the material of the seat itself is different compared with the stripe of smooth leather,that fixes the seat to it´s Hood. For me this seems to be suede leather and it´s structure does not Show a random scar Formation,it seems to be a stiched pattern. Some hem-strings also can be seen(like the Mef),separating the seat´s parts. Maybe we can find out more,if we compare this seat with other seats of this period. Great contribution yet again Hannes. I had already compared Photo 1B to Photo 2 regarding the seat, not so sure they look to feature the same seat upholstery and structure. But maybe I'm mistaken. Further research... 3 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said: well, I am very impressed by the vitality of this thread! I must say that in this thread I feel free to go as crazy in my research as I can, without having to be afraid of 'conflicting' interest with those who just want to enjoy building the kit. The contributors to this detailing thread all have the same purpose now. 3 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said: I prepare a little tuto about the leaf springs, will try to post it tomorrow... Looking forward to it. 51 minutes ago, Hannes said: Dear Roy all of the kit´s louvres are wrong regarding their angles and size. Rrright... 51 minutes ago, Hannes said: I´m not yet completely shure,what construction will be the best to replace them.Although I´m a fan of the Doors , I probably won´t break through to the other side this time. Of Course they have to be made hollow inside,.A combination made out of brass sheet and tiny styrene stripes could be a possible solution. If they were blackened somewhat inside,there could be an Illusion of depth. Something to give some more thoughts. Thanks for this basis for a strategy plan. 5 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said: 1) agree with Roy, they are too small on photo 8 (I am sure the exhausts are wrong too, they must be squarred and not round) More proof of that below. 5 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said: 2) these louvres are not placed at the same level on left and right side. They are closer from the cockpit on left side Hadn't noticed that before, thanks. 5 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said: 3) It is curious, on every photos, the left ones look as if they were neither front neither rear opened, as if it was just a hollow, a hole. Do you think it's possible? Further research... 5 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said: 4) On the right side, they seem to be front opened I think nobody really gave a decisive answer as to what these louvres were for. I'm thinking of something now... could it be that they were meant to cool off the fuel pumps? What else would there be to cool off? This would mean there were two fuel pumps, one for the left side of the engine and one for the right side. Theories, theories... Anyway, I'll treat three subject matters in one post... a 'new' drawing, some conclusions about the number '15' on the bonnets. Were they there or weren't they? And in final, communications I had with Centro Storico Fiat today. 1. 'New' Drawing 5 Again I added an image to the list of stuff we have: It may not be very realistic (body too low, protruding wheel hubs, transparent steering wheel disk too small) but it is interesting nevertheless. For example, the color of the exhaust might be right (compare to photos 4 and 8!). Drawings 3 and 4 suggest a dark brownish color but it may well have been polished metal-like. I also see no reason to think the chassis had another color than the body. Drawing 3 and 4 are probably wrong in that respect, because they were created at a later stage. The 'new' drawing of the car in action was made by Plinio Codognato, official designer of Fiat. He therefore would have seen the car in person, using the colors he saw. Also interesting in this drawing is that the springs are seen (=red!!). Furthermore this image supports my theory that the exhaust tips were square and not (as in photo 8) rounded. 2. The mystery of the '15' number on the bonnets Yet another interesting thing is that there is no '15' number on the right hand bonnet side, at least in this picture. This supports my theory that that number was NOT painted on. It was in fact canvas or linen or so. Why? Well, pictures 1, 2 and 3 also don't have the '15' number on the bonnet. These pictures were probably all made in the workshop BEFORE the race. The race poster had to be made some time BEFORE the race, because it was intended as a promotional for that race. In the race, the '15' number was in fact present. It can be seen if you look very closely at Photos 4 and 7A. Plus, it was drawn into photo 1B (not in 1A!), the artist probably trying to represent the situation of the race. See here photos 4 and 7A: Not only can the '5' and the '1' be seen on the right hand side of the car (first two photos), it can also be seen that those numbers were 'raised'. So they were not painted on for sure. That was already logical because the louvre holes were covered by the numbers, as mentioned in a previous post, but now we can be almost 100% sure. On the 'new drawing' which I'll refer to as 'Drawing 5' you can see that in the workshop there were no numbers on either side of the bonnet. The left hand numbers would have been visible in this drawing. Conclusion: - Hannes (representing the car as it was on the day of the race) will apply the numbers (I advice to not paint them on but use tissue + wood glue or so, to try getting the linen look). The numbers were on both sides of the bonnet. - I (representing the car as it was in the workshop a few days or weeks before the race) will NOT apply the numbers on either side of the bonnet. - The other '15' numbers were probably painted on. It was present in the workshop, see Drawing 5 and Photo 3 (barely visible). 3. Centro Storico Fiat Today I called Centro Storico Fiat, the historical museum and archives of Fiat, in Torino. I asked them if it was possible to make an appointment to study their archives. The Centre employee was very friendly and advised me to sent them an e-mail. An obstruction to my request could be that the copyright and other legal issues regarding requests like these are currently being checked and decided on. So we will have to be patient, he expects we'll have an answer in a month or so. My telephone call was followed up by this e-mail: Ladies and gentlemen, My name is Roy [...] and I am a high-detail scale modeler. In 2015 Italeri reissued a model of the legendary Fiat 806 racing car, using molds originally designed by Protar: three Italian companies intending to keep the memory of the first low-bodied, single-seat racing car alive. However the kit contains many flaws and mistakes. I am part of a group of dedicated people who are very motivated to correct the kit as best as we can, to replicate the Fiat 806 as close to reality as possible, using photogrammetry and the latest 3D-technology. We are only hobbyists but we are very inspired to unravel the secrets of this car. We now have 8 photos, 4 body drawings and 2 engine drawings. But we think there may be more and we think that Centro Storico with its immense archive could contain some remarkable information. I hope Fiat will applaud and support our research and allow me to come and study the archive. Information on our project is to be found here: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235011875-fiat-806-research-and-scratchbuilds/&page=1 I would be very honored to fly from Amsterdam to Torino and visit the museum and archive. Today I called Centro Storico to introduce this request and I was informed by your kind employee Max that FCA is currently reviewing their archive-admittance and legal policy. I am looking forward to the conclusion of that and hope to hear from you posititively. With kind regards, Roy [...] Amsterdam (the Netherlands) [...] I'll interestedly await the outcome of their policy deliberations. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Dear Roy,the kit does not Show any fuel pumps.The tank is directly connected with the carbouretors by a fuel pipe. In my opinion the louvres were made to cool down the gasoline in the tank. Greetings! Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
square Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Don't know anything technical about cars, just enjoying this thread Is this photo part of your collection http://archivio.fototeca-gilardi.com/item/it/1/36032 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vontrips Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 11 minutes ago, square said: Don't know anything technical about cars, just enjoying this thread Is this photo part of your collection http://archivio.fototeca-gilardi.com/item/it/1/36032 Wow! Never seen that before and thank you! Top bloke! Welcome aboard and enjoy the ride! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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