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Roy vd M.

Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

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Fastcat    171

Hannes,

              I'm sorry but I don't see your problem with what I wrote. You clearly stated that it would have been the first single seater in the world and that was not the case. To then compare me to the writers in the mass media is very insulting. You were not quoted out of context. The world means the world, not the narrow confines of any organisation.

Folks rightly or wrongly believe what they read and your sweeping statements of "facts" were simply wrong. You invite others to join the debate - small wonder they don't bother.

I've no wish for this thread to descend into name calling and insults.

I would however prefer to see facts rather than fiction.

Go and take a cold shower!

Dave

 

Edited by Fastcat
I wanted to.

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Hannes    1,817

Dear Olivier , this is really watchmaker´s work .Great job . Meanwhile I´m aquainted with my mini lathe and I have to confess : It´s a lot of fun working with this tool ( besides the lot of chips )

A father of a friend of mine works on great lathes professional and this way I could get some good hints regarding my toy-tool .

Roys explanations also helped a lot , many thanks for that !

Many greetings !  Hannes

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Dave,

I agree with you, Hannes was wrong reacting to your posts as he did, but they were a bit strong too. Please let's stay gentlemen, we may disagree without being rude! (and this is for everyone).

The best

Olivier

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Hannes    1,817

Dear fastcat , I guess we both felt insulted , that´s why this escalation happened . Of course it was not correct to write the generalizing sentence regarding the first single -seater . 

But you also did not realize in which connection this sentence was said . Constructive criticism looks different imho ! And I´m also aware that a deeper  positiion of the driver has a lot of advantages ..

This car was a remarkable  step in motorsport´s history that´s why it is important  to look at the issue from different point of views . Was a lower driver´s position more important than a balanced geometry ?

What influence had the new CSI -prescriptions for this formula  ? 

There are a lot of unanswered questions and even in the authoritive literature you will  not find all answers .

Let´s stay realistic ! I´m not a resentful person and if you accept my sorry there´s no reason to end our discussions .

Many greetings !  Hannes

 

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Hannes    1,817

Of course I do , dear fastcat . And I want to add : I respect your profound knowledge .

Many greetings !  Hannes

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Black Knight    3,597
5 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

The initial question was: why Fiat engineers have set the driver right and the engine left, instead of setting both of them in the middle. Do you have an idea?

I think it may have to do with the torque, the turning forces, of the engine.

Putting it to one side and also using the driver as a counterweight it would alter the handling of the car, for better

In my Austin 7 Ulster a previous owner lightened the fly-wheel to reduce the torque effect

an example; the Sopwith Camel was unstable due to the torque of its turning engine. The Hawker Hurricane had its tail-fin off-set by 3 degrees to counter engine torque, the Messer 109 had its tail-fin aerofoil shaped for the same purpose.

 

Very excellent model making people

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Hannes    1,817

That´s very interesting , dear Fred .Do you believe that the 2-stroke engine should get shifted as well after the announcement that no driver mechanic had to be aboard anymore in 1927 ?

In my opinion the first plans of our car were drawn in 1925 , most likely a two-seater with an central engine At this time it was already known that the CSI rules for 1926 allowed only 1500 cc engines and compressors were accepted .

. These rules were altered for 1927 by reducing the minimum weight to 700 kg ( empty car ) and new seat rules .( see my post above ) 

Is there anything you know about a second fake seat  on board of a single seater ?

Many greetings !  Hannes

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Fastcat    171

The engine was offset towards the original mechanic's side to allow the driver to sit lower in the car and also balance his weight. It also allowed the fuel tank to be placed next to the driver and nearer to the centre of gravity. This helped to counter the effects of changing centre of gravity as the tank emptied.See here for the reason:     http://petergiddings.com/Cars/delage.html

It explains in the first few lines why Delage used an offset similar to Fiat.

Unless a gearbox with an offset drive shaft was used (or font wheel drive), the driver would otherwise have to sit on top of the drive shaft cover, raising him 10cms or more and increasing the drag and raising the centre of gravity.

Incidentally, neither of these cars is a true two-seater. You'd need to be on very friendly terms with the driver to share the cockpit for any length of time!

Dave

Edited by Fastcat

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NickD    725

Chaps,

 

I also wonder whether they also wanted to keep the car as short as possible, again in the interests of handling.

 

Regards

 

Nick

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Hannes    1,817

The successor according drawing 2  would have been longer and it´s rear topline higher compared to our car imho  .It´s possible that a bigger tank behind the driver´s seat was required for a race over 500 km .

The tank volume for our car was 170 litres according Massimino and  the engine had an average consumption of 35 litres of gasoline  per 100 km according Salamano ´. But the handling would change if the wheelbase would have been altered imho .

Many greetings !  Hannes

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Black Knight    3,597
39 minutes ago, Fastcat said:

Unless a gearbox with an offset drive shaft was used (or font wheel drive), the driver would otherwise have to sit on top of the drive shaft cover, raising him 10cms or more and increasing the drag and raising the centre of gravity.

Incidentally, neither of these cars is a true two-seater. You'd need to be on very friendly terms with the driver to share the cockpit for any length of time!

Not necessarily; my A7 Ulster is only 33 inches wide at the seats. Both seats sit down between the drive shaft tunnel and the side of the car. In most of these cars eg the A7 Ulster, MGK2/K3 etcetera the co-driver/riding mechanic/navigator seat is set back from that of the driver. In my A7 U the driver's seat is about 3 inches further forward. On a friend's MGJ2 the  other seat is back by about 4 inches

Do not forget that the race drivers then and people in general were of a more slight build. A man weighed about 10 stone, now 13 to 14 stone is normal

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Fastcat    171

I know but you have to admit it would be kind of cosy! The racing Morgans usually stagger the seats too, in fact most two seaters do but converted road cars are generally a bit wider than all out racers.

 

Dave

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Black Knight    3,597

Cosy? maybe, but not in the rain on a rally with navvy unfolding a map and bumping your left arm, shouting directions and warnings...and....

 

PS. My A7 U is not a converted road car, its an original 1930 factory racer Ulster

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My bonnets fasteners are over. This morning, I made the left ones, hooked only by the frame eyebolt, as the bonnet is opened. My build should be over today or tomorrow.

 

I will begin immediately the OOB version.

 

All the best to all and thank you for the interesting answers to my question, Dave and Fred.

ZMS2iP.jpg

 

jg7LuZ.jpg

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9 hours ago, NickD said:

I also wonder whether they also wanted to keep the car as short as possible, again in the interests of handling.

Me too, Nick, I wonder that. 

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9 hours ago, Hannes said:

It´s possible that a bigger tank behind the driver´s seat was required for a race over 500 km

Interesting and very possible, Hannes.

 

P.S: the 806 on the black cardboard in which I am gonna cut a 34,5 cm circle to cement (double sided tape) on the 30 cm round mirror, this one being itself fixed on the motorized tray. My workbench is a merry mess, despite my efforts to get it better...

iZTLfy.jpg

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Despite my model is not completely over, I couldn't wait more to take these photos. Anyway, the last step I have to do won't change very much the result.

Furthermore, I have now cut my 34,5 cm cardboard so my model is now ready to be exposed.

I won't have enough time today to do the final step, so I will do it tomorrow.

I would like to ask a pro photographer to make photos of my build, as Hannes did for his Mef. I am gonna think about that...

2C1kc8.jpg

 

ud67fP.jpg

 

krC9I3.jpg

 

Kofhp3.jpg

 

9J4IqN.jpg

 

P.S: did you notice how the red is different following the cardboard used? On a beige cardboard, the red is darker, on a black one, it is lighter.

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
Adding

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Fastcat    171

Looking excellent and it's impressive how it looks with the bonnet open.

Quote

It´s possible that a bigger tank behind the driver´s seat was required for a race over 500 km

There was, it's shown on the drawings and is filled by means of the big filler cap behind the driver. Extra fuel (or in some cases oil) would go in the tank next to the driver where it's weight would cause least imbalance as it emptied. The fuel lines aren't well shown although the front and rear compartments of the side tank are connected by a thin pipe beneath the car. In this car, it appears that the oil tank was on the left and next to the gearbox, where the mechanics feet would be. The layout makes a lot of sense in attempting to cram a lot of fuel, oil and driver into a very compact space.

 

Dave

 

PS: What a great workroom!   

Edited by Fastcat
Fun, pure fun!

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Hannes    1,817

This model is a great milestone in motorsport cars  modeling history as well  !  Hannes

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K5tBpr.png

ycZUWS.jpg

 

 

k2yiCZ.jpg

 

This tiny metallic wire running between the frame reinforcement and a piece that looks oval on the enlargement of our photo 2 VHR, will be the final touch of this amazing, huge work that this build will have been for me, definitely up to now the most ambitious of all my model making work. Obviously not perfect, it represents however certainly, and waiting others to do better, the best replica of the last Fiat running in a G.P. It was the 4/09/1927, 90 years ago, on the Monza circuit. At the time of writing these lines, I feel moved. So many hours spent on the build, the photos and labels, and of course on the Britmodeller thread, without which, thanks to all of you, I would never have built such an accurate model.

I have improved my technique of model making, my english, and I have learnt to be very humble, the truth is so difficult to get. 

All the best to all the "dream team"!

Olivier

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
adding

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Hannes    1,817

We all know , you´re a very good photographer , dear Olivier but in this case I would recommend a talented professional for taking pictures of this wonderful model . I have still  another idea : Why not recording  a small video clip with the model on a rotating disc ! Very low light at the beginning as if the car appears in the dawn . And a great piece of music possibly from one of the great Italian operas . I´m sure this video clip will be seen by a lot of people !

Many congratulations for your great work !  Your friend Hannes

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Thanks so much Hannes!

1) I agree with you, a good pro photographer would enhance better than me this build. Juan Manuel is in the same time an exceptional modeler and an exceptional photographer, he would be the best placed for such a job. Pity, he lives very far from me, in South Spain.

But I will ask him hints. And in the same time, I will think about a pro photographer closer from me.

2) The video is a very good idea too, under condition it is a quality one. The first tests I did were bad. I will try again.

All the best and "bon courage" for the rest of your build. I am sure it will be fantastic.

Olivier

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