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Roy vd M.

Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

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harveyb258    349

I love the work you have done, Olivier.....you are the first man in 90yrs to realise this sexy little race-car!!! Be VERY proud my friend!!:D

 

btw there's an update on my thread.

 

Cheers, H

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16 minutes ago, Hannes said:

instead of builing the car oob with a not very satisfying result you could try to reconstruct the original plan according drawing 1 with an 8-cylinder 2--stroke engine

Thanks Hannes for this suggestion, but I will remain in my initial idea. Even if, of course, this new build will take some time, it will need much much less time than the actual one, and I want to build the Mef in a reasonable future. And I really want to show the many differences between both. I will leave you follow this very ambitious idea. You are the best placed to do it, in my opinion.

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9 minutes ago, Roy vd M. said:

@Olivier de St Raph I wish you the best of luck with this 'easy' project (easy for sure if compared to what you have done now) and I look forward to seeing the difference between the out of box-model versus the quasi-scratchbuilt version.

 

It will provide a great comparison and will visualize just how different Italeri kit and 99% of the real car truly were. 

Thanks Roy! I admit I don't dislike the idea of making an "easy" build. It will change me, less stress! But in fact, even OOB, this kit is not so easy than that.

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Thanks Harvey for your kind words. I have looked at your thread, bravo for that nice craftsman work. I am sure many updates can be done, and wish you many hours of fascinating model making!

Cheers, O ;)

 

 

 

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Below, again one of these merciless comparisons that has helped me so much to get a convincing model of our car. I have used 0,2 mm thick tin sheet for my support. I made first a cardboard template. Well, I warn you, it is not easy. The result is not so bad (the kit's part for that support, 36 to 38E, is in the same time much too short and very thick, 1,1 mm!), but not very good too. The points I must improve are imho:

- the material itself: the tin is very soft so easy to bend, but its surface condition is not smooth. I can try to sand it gently but the best material imho would be a 0,15 mm alu sheet, that would be soft enough to get bended but in the same time would be smoother

- the hook must be more opened, the up rod shorter

- the low rod must be a bit longer

- the hole in the middle is more rounded

 

Furthermore, this comparison shows also other improvements necessary:

- the bonnet support is darker and there is no rubber sheet on it

- my vertical steering connector is a bit too large, especially on its lower part, and maybe also a bit too long

- my "stops" are too large too, and also a bit too long. Harvey's ones are better dimensioned. I will improve that too.

- the exhaust is a bit too low, and the connection rear/ front part must be improved

fWhBNW.png

 

 

 

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Hannes    1,824

Dear Olivier , in my opinion the whole support was covered with a soft material similar to  the Bugatti I showed above .

Many greetings !  Hannes

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50 minutes ago, Hannes said:

in my opinion the whole support was covered with a soft material similar to  the Bugatti I showed above

Very interesting Hannes. This would explain the very dark color we can see. It would be a kind of rubber... I could reconsider this... As you know, I had used the Delage supports as reference but the VHR photo 2 shows it was more probably a soft material as on the Bugatti. Hannes, if you were an American Indian, we should call you Hawk Eyes...;)

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Hannes    1,824

On drawing 1 a lot of interesting details can be seen . But it´s even more  interesting what we cannot see : It´s the branches for the exhaust manifolds !

I´m aware not everybody on this thread is convinced that drawing 1 was a plan from 1926  for the 2-stroke engine . Besides Olivier nobody " liked " my long article regarding the history of the car´s development . But this circumstance should be a reason to look at this issue again . Most probably it was not yet clear how many cylinders the new 451 engine  should have ! Or it should get kept secret !

According Sebastien´s book the press was speculating at that time what kind of engine was developed in the Fiat factory . There were rumours regarding a new 4-cylinder engine published in the french magazine " Dimanche Auto ""on 2 / 31  1926  .Most likely the new 451 engine should have 4 cylinders on each side . According Massimino two crankshafts were provided for the 2-stroke engine .

Many greetings !  Hannes

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Hannes    1,824

1924 was the last year when the Fiat racing  team participated in  an official GP .According Salamano´s version both new racing engines were developed in " winter 1926 / 27."

This is nonsense of course and Massimino critizised Salamano in his 1967 interview with Rogliatti. I guess Massimino said : Don´t believe everything what this  Salamano  reported . OK , he was driving the car but he could not know everything what happened behind the curtains .

  I´m sure this is true . But it´s a fact that Salamano was driving our car .

And there´s one remark that made me curious . Salamano told Richard von Frankenberg :Racing cars at this time must have had 2 seats aboard even for the year 1927 no driver mechanic was prescripted anymore .That´s why this Fiat had a steering wheel on the right side and  also a" completely covered second seat "

When I was reading this article the first time I believed this to be nonsense as well but meanwhile I´m not so sure anymore .

I found an article regarding the new regulations for the year 1927 . I quote:

" Two seats remained mandatory in two-seat cars but at the same time single seater cars were allowed provided the seat had a minimum width of 80 cm - 31,5 in and a minimum height of 25 cm -9,8 in ."

I cannot see a width of 80 cm and even the lenght of the seat should not be more than 50-6o cm . Has there been a fake seat on , under or behind the oil tank ?

Expert´s opinions are highly welcomed !

Many greetings !  Hannes

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Dear Hannes,

I am not an expert as you know, but as I suggested to you above, you could ask Sébastien about these questions. He is quite busy but he should anyway reply to you as he is very concerned by all what touches Fiat at these times.

Furthermore, as you, I regret having been alone to have "liked" the very interesting and clever comment you made above. Even if one does not agree with your assumptions, there is imho a will to understand that deserved definitely at least a "like"...

P.S: I have removed the black "rubber" parts on my bonnets supports and painted the whole supports flat black (Vallejo 950). On the photo 2, we can see the sheet is very thin, that is why I did not add any topsheet. In the same time, I have enhanced many détails with a black wash. Photo very soon...

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Hannes    1,824

Dear Olivier ,it is indeed a fundamental question why the engineers did not use the opportunity to create a car with an central engine and a central seat and steering wheel . It was known at the time when the development of the 2-stroke engone was stopped that no rider mechanic had to be aboard anymore for the year 1927 . A better balance wouild have been much more important than a lower position of the seat !

The clutch pedal could have been shifted to the left side of the clutch  case  and the first real single seater racing car of the world would have been born .

I guess it´s because the regulations . And there must have been a second hidden seat or else this arrangement makes no sense .

It´s too bad that only a very small circle of persons remained for discussing such important questions like this . Some months ago there would have been a lot of interest by many members . It seems to be vanished now even if our research reached a new dimension .

Many greetings !  Hannes

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Fastcat    171
Quote

the first real single seater racing car of the world would have been born

In 1927? Hardly.

Such a sweeping statement ignores the facts. Pure single seaters were raced at Indianapolis in 1923 when the two seat rule was made optional. Have a look at the Miller 122 for instance.

Also Delage used a converted two seater with a very similar arrangement.

 

Dave

Edited by Fastcat
I like editing.

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Fastcat    171
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A better balance wouild have been much more important than a lower position of the seat !

You under-estimate the importance of obtaining as low a ride height as possible. Harry Miller, having built one of the most successful single seaters went on to design a front wheel drive car which allowed him to do away with the drive shaft and seat the driver much lower in the chassis. He didn't do that for fun. Leon Duray won in such a car. A lower roll centre allows much higher cornering speeds.

It's also one of the benefits of dry-sump lubrication. It allows the engine to be mounted lower and reduces the roll centre. Also, smaller diameter wheels help.

Changing the yaw and pitch balance can be done in a number ways, the position of the fuel tank, wheelbase, suspension geometry etc. but lowering the roll centre is more difficult. Achieving a lower car and roll centre is the ideal of most designers.

 

I love three wheeler Morgans and one of the most successful Morgan drivers was Clive Lones. He noticed that after the front suspension of his race car was bent while racing, making it lower, the car handled far better. He got Morgan to fabricate special cranked front suspension tubes, reducing the ride height several inches. This improved the handling so much and the factory was so impressed that production suspension was similarly modified although to a lesser degree. Have a look at modern Morgan racers - they literally hug the track. If it was good enough to convince Harry Miller, Clive Lones, H. F. S. Morgan and a host of others since, who am I to disagree?

Dave

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Thank you, Dave, for your interesting comments. Without being an expert, I agree with you to say that the most difficult, and the most important, was to lower the car, even if the balance was of course also very important for a race car. 

The initial question was: why Fiat engineers have set the driver right and the engine left, instead of setting both of them in the middle. Do you have an idea?

 

 

 

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As I said above, I have removed the "rubber" parts of my bonnets supports and applied Vallejo black 950 on the thin sheet, as we can see on photo 2, and made a wash on many details, buttons, screws, bolts, and limits for a light 3D effect. 

 RKpTcX.jpg

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Hannes    1,824

I  referred to the formula rules by the CSI and not Indianapolis 500 rules or formula libre .Of course there have been single seater racing cars already before WW 1.The context is important and not quoted sentences . That´s what our mass media and lawyers  do . The question remains if there  were alternatives regarding this construction and if there had been a second seat aboard .  Hannes

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The same work has been done on the left side. On black parts, such as the leaf spring supports, a grey wash has been applied instead of black.

eUOfis.jpg

 

 

 

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Hannes    1,824

Dear Olivier  , your model looks really great !  I think paul Kierstein would be glad to receive more photos once your construction is done . As Harvey said : Be very proud !

Many greetings !  Hannes

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Roy vd M.    1,759
4 hours ago, Hannes said:

The clutch pedal could have been shifted to the left side of the clutch  case  and the first real single seater racing car of the world would have been born .

Quote

I  referred to the formula rules by the CSI and not Indianapolis 500 rules or formula libre .Of course there have been single seater racing cars already before WW 1.The context is important and not quoted sentences . That´s what our mass media do . The question remains if there  were alternatives regarding this construction and if there had been a second seat aboard .  Hannes

Quote

 

It´s too bad that only a very small circle of persons remained for discussing such important questions like this .

 

Hannes, you did not refer to any specific rules. You bluntly stated just as I quote you above. Someone apparently very knowledgable rightfully corrects you and you immediately feel the need to compare him with the methods of the mass media. Not very nice. 

 

Perhaps this answers, in part, why there are few discussions going on in this thread besides your own. Speaking for myself, I refuse to participate in a discussion based on ongoing assumptions presented as if they were facts (and a strong hesitance to change opinion). This thread has become filled with that. 

 

Rather than that, I would really appreciate to see you continue working on the model because it started to look very nice last time I saw pictures of it.  

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16 minutes ago, Hannes said:

Dear Olivier  , your model looks really great !  I think paul Kierstein would be glad to receive more photos once your construction is done . As Harvey said : Be very proud !

Many greetings !  Hannes

Thanks Hannes!

For sure, I will send to Paul and Sébastien the photos of my 806 when it (or she?) will be over. I still have a few steps. 

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Hannes    1,824

Dear Roy , assumptions are necessary for a deeper research . Even scientists develop theories which must get modified ,veryfied or rejected later on . If I´m the only one who developes theories in a public thread it does not look good of course . And it´s better if others show  their own assumptions . If there are good arguments against my theories , I will be the first to realize it ..

I referred to the rules of the CSI by quoting their prescriptions for 1927 in an earlier post .

Regarding my comparison with the mass media : Nobody  likes to get quoted out of the context .

I would like to see  your  contributions more often in this thread   You have done a lot for our common issue . I want a fair , open and friendly discussion .

If we all keep this in mind , our common goal will be in sight .

Many greetings !  Hannes

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Keep cool guys, please! I am very well placed to know Hannes has a strong personality, very sure of himself. He was often right to be so, but he is too clever not to admit he was wrong when he was. These discussions must remain with respect and friendship, what does not mean agreeing with all what Hannes says... 

All the best to all

Olivier

 

 

 

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Phew! I succeeded my first set bonnet fastener/ spring. A real watchmaking job, but I am glad with the result. I finally used the 0,2 mm tin sheet as I did above, but trying not to bend it more than necessary, to keep a smooth surface condition. Now, I just have to repeat the same thing with the 3 others!!

After that, I will represent the tiny wire running under the frame and mentioned above, and after...   !!!

P.S: notice that my rear "stop"has been unglued in the operation. I will glue it again in the right position...

 

mu4nPK.jpg

 

 

 

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A little tuto about the fastener scratchbuild. Of course, this is just the way I made it, but I don't pretend it to be the best method.

 

H30igM.jpg

 

ylJQ0T.jpg

 

byfEqO.jpg

 

M3MwNs.jpg

 

P.S: the front spring will be much shorter than the rear one.

 

 

 

 

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