Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , I did similar works with my own manifolds and I know , it not easy to alter the kit´s parts .  Good work! Elongating branches and  altering the transitions branches - collector  is sculptural work and you did it well.. The bonnets and the parts with the louvres below  have to get adapted too for my construction , that´s why I recommended to create a removable fixation for the rear pipes .

Even if you build the car oob these parts never fit ! Keep on trucking and don´t loose your silver hairs !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks Hannes and Fred, I 'll try to keep my silver hairs, indeed, if possible!

On this top view, we can see the defects of my left manifold more clearly:

1) the front part goes too inside, it should remain over and even a bit outside/ the frame, as on right side, much better.

2) both sides, the added plastic card (white), that must connect with the rear exhaust, are going inside. They should be straight on top view.

Another necessary correction I must do concerns the right wheel axis, that goes a bit outside. A cut on the axle will help getting the good one... 

 

 

Little comparison (but the angles of views are not the same) with photo 3:

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , I think it´s correct if the two plastic cards  are showing to the inside ( not straight on top-view ) In my opinion  you only should give them straight directions  at their very ends to get a good transition to the rear pipes .  hannes

Edited July 5, 2017 by Hannes

[Black Knight]

4 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Looks like

from right

Speedometer

Rev counter [as indicated by the red line at the 3 o'clock position]

oil pressure

I reckon I answered too quickly without really studying the picture of the instruments

Looking again at the dials again I see the centre one has two indicator needles.

I think the left one might be the rev counter,

the centre one with two indicator needles might be a combined oil pressure and ammeter - the top being the oil pressure, the bottom being the ammeter

very sorry for misleading you

[Totally Mad Olivier]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

very sorry for misleading you

No problem, really, Fred 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Nearly 1 year ago, the 13/07/2016, I bought a kit of a nice old race car, the Fiat 806 from Italeri. I was very far from thinking up to where this would take me!!

I think my build should be over beginning of august (not including the mechanics and tools...). I hope even a little before...

All the best to all people who followed the threads dedicated to that wonderful car!

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I didn't get any reply about my question on wrapping the branches of the exhaust. In the doubt, I will certainly wrap them. It seems logic to protect the mechanist who had to work on the engine, in case of problem during the race, when the engine was hot...

[Hannes]

Dear Oliver , none of our documents show if the branches were wrapped or not ., I will leave them unwrapped but I´m not sure . Maybe comparisons with other contemporary cars could help .

I´m sure it´s possible to find out but I don´t know how . Maybe Fred knows more !  Hannes

[Hannes]

I was reading some hints about bandages around manifolds . The main purpose seems to be to keep the exhaust gases as hot as possible to enable a quicker gas-flow  out of the pipes.,

It could cause overheating effects in the cylinder head when applied to normal street cars . But a racing car engine  consumes more gasoline and this also has an cooling effect .The systems have to get adjusted . The bandages should get wrapped with 50 per cent overlay as tight as possible and soaked with liquids before applied .Hannes

Edited July 6, 2017 by Hannes

[Black Knight]

The branches and the first part of the manifold proper do not get wrapped in asbestos bandage

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks Fred and Hannes. Fred seems to be sure of his reply. While, the photo 9 seems to show the same wrapping around the front part of the collector than the rear one:

 

For the branches, of course, impossible to say. Only the example on contemporary race cars of that period could give an idea, but without certainty...

Edited July 6, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

The Delage had a partial wrapping, only on the middle part:

 

The Amilcar (photo above) has nearly the same portion of exhaust than the Delage, wrapped.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Very partial wrapping on the Alfa P2:

 

On the Bugatti T35, the exhaust is under the car, not outside, and there was no wrapping at all, it seems.

Ok, my decision is taken, the wrapping on my 806 will concern the whole collector but not the branches, unless someone else brings a new light on the subject.

 

P.S: we can however see on the photo 9 that the very few of the branche has the same "color" than the rest of the exhaust. If t was black, wouldn't it appear darker??

Edited July 6, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Notice the high contrast of color between the wrapped portion and the black unwrapped one, on this enlargement B/W of the Delage:

 

And now, look at the exhaust on our photo 9: no contrast nowhere, including the small part of the branche visible. This makes me think that the whole exhaust was wrapped...

 

Of course, all these observations are assumptions, it is very difficult to be sure... Nevertheless, I doubt... CC, what do you think?

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[CrazyCrank]

Very difficult to say where begin and stop the asbestos/fiberglass/titanium wrapping on vintage racing cars

One have, other not

This Ferrari has

 

 

This picture shows a titanium bandage possible usage

This one too:

 

 

It's very common today to see a wrapping bandage over the entire exhaust  on bike (HD overall)...It's done for aesthetic I think

 

For the Fiat 806, contrary to Fred, I would tend to think the bandage cover branches too, as Olivier, due in part to the same color....but impossible to assert !

 

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by CrazyCrank

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks CC, indeed, considering the exhaust has the same color all along, including the branches, I will finally apply the wrapping on them. With this build, we have to carry Lt Columbo's clothes! 

[Black Knight]

Don't confuse modern exhaust wrapping with the practice of the 1920s/30s

In modern racing all exposed exhaust parts which are easily accessible have to be wrapped for safety reasons

Many in competitions wrap their exhausts for the looks, the owner/rider/team do not know why parts of the exhaust are wrapped and other parts are not. They do it because it looks 'race like'. [this is from personal knowledge of interviews with racing people, its not an assumption]

Wrapping the branches on a high temperature racing engine leads to burnt pistons, boiling off of upper cylinder lubricating oil and other problems

[Totally Mad Olivier]

The band aid must be applied with care on the branches, to avoid hillocks. It is, one more time, a patience work, but the advantage - over the fact that it seems to me present on our photo 9 - is to hide the many cuts, corrections, done on the branches to get something acceptable...

 

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier  , of course I cannot rule out a covering of the branches although Fred´s explanations sound logical for me .. Maybe the attachement   of the 3 slits on the left side  by mechanics in a hurry was a desperate attempt to cool down the gasoline after the exhausts got wrapped .

Most likely the engine would have caused a lot of problems if there had been no rainy wheather on  the racing day and I also doubt it would have survived  a Grand Prix of Italy over 500 km instead of only 50 km .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 6, 2017 by Hannes

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier  , I  want to add some deliberations regarding the shapes of the manifolds . They are not tight to the bonnets at their rear parts for several reasons imho .

On photo 9 we can see the mounting point of the steering lever which is connected with  the steering case over a strong rod .( On page 142 you believed this to be one of the branches ! ) This mounting point is situated on the level where the upper line of the manifold is situated , this means  the lever is  partial situated behind the manifold and not below like in the kit´s solution .

The fasteners for the bonnets including their springs also need some space .

All these circumstances lead to a somewhat arched shape of the manifolds seen from the plan view imho.   Hannes

Edited July 6, 2017 by Hannes

[CrazyCrank]

5 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Don't confuse modern exhaust wrapping with the practice of the 1920s/30s

In modern racing all exposed exhaust parts which are easily accessible have to be wrapped for safety reasons

Many in competitions wrap their exhausts for the looks, the owner/rider/team do not know why parts of the exhaust are wrapped and other parts are not. They do it because it looks 'race like'. [this is from personal knowledge of interviews with racing people, its not an assumption]

Wrapping the branches on a high temperature racing engine leads to burnt pistons, boiling off of upper cylinder lubricating oil and other problems

 

You're probably right, Fred, considering this technical respect...I'm not a mechanic.

However, the picture Olivier showed us seems to tell us the contrary...

So, what is necessary to do ? I don't know !

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Fred's comment arrived a bit too late, I had ever wrapped my branches. But I will keep my wrapped branches, because I really don't see any contrast of color between the branches and the manifold. And I like it like that... And I am fed up doing and redoing. Read Lafontaine tale "le meunier, son fils et l'âne", you'll understand my state of mind... In other words, maybe I am wrong, but I assume!

Edited July 7, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

Sometimes I imagine I could travel in time and see all the events and our car live , in color and 3 D . I guess we all would have very different impressions than we do  have now if we could participate .

Therefore it´s allowed imho to have a own perspective  regarding  this event in the past and this includes the car itself . Secrets make history interesting and if someone claims to know the truth about history , he´s a liar .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 7, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Funny, what you say, Hannes. I often feel that the world was in black and white at this time, because all docs we have are so. It makes me funny, when I imagine a diorama with a background, to put a color photo of the Monza circuit! 

I got today the 1 mm steel balls and so I could put the last hand to my tensioners:

 

 

[Hannes]

Very fine work , dear Olivier ! Did you know , that most people started to have colored dreams after the color TV was  presented  ? That´s no joke ! Before owning a color TV  most people had black and white dreams . I only know colored dreams although there was no color TV when I was very young .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 7, 2017 by Hannes