Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 About the color of the cap and thermometer, the best photo we have imho is this one, because on some other ones (4, 7, 9), the red body color appears very dark, so we can't see a significant difference. But on this one (photo 12), the body is much lighter than the cap/ thermometer. That's why I go on thinking this one was black, as on the Mef'. But maybe mine is a bit too bright, I will correct this. About the grille screws, we all agree to say mine were oversized, I just needed to find smaller ones. I hope I will get soon the ones I ordered yesterday night thanks to CC. Robin, great minds think alike! I have my better ideas during the night, and I thought this cloth could be a bit too thick (I just mesured its thickness on my black one, it is 0,23 mm) and I thought I could try with masking tape. This one is much finer (0,07 mm). Hannes, the interest of photo 12 I reproduce here is not only to show the thermometer, but to show the front wheels. And indeed, as you suggest, it seems the left one (right on the photo) is more cambered than the right one. But I don't think I will reproduce that, I am afraid people think it is a defect (error) of my build... That said, it may be an optical illusion, distorsion on the side of the image... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 59 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said: That's why I go on thinking this one was black, yes agreed now ! thank you 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Putting words into action (see just above), I began to make the driver's hood, made of masking tape, coated with Mr Surfacer 500. It is not yet dry, that's why the filler appears bright. Notice that my steering wheel wore off the right hand. It is just as well, the work of shading and lighting on the driver (just begun) will be made easier... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Morning all, Glad to see so much activity. Really behind on the likes. Sorry about that. Personnally I'm not getting much done. The framing stuff is thought provoking, I need to go back and look at that. The insights into positioning of the driver's feet has done nothing to diminish my respect for these guys. Most of the rest of my comments probably relate to Olivier's progress. Radiator looks great - probably agree on the screws. The driver figure - must confess to not being a fan up til now. I think in your last picture, he is really beginning to look like the photos. Still don't see how you will get the quality up to the standard of the rest of the model. But you have been there so many times before. Radiator cap - to my eye it is not one colour. In the studio shots, the base is dark and the rod thingy is slightly less dark and a different finish. It looks to me that the bottom is painted a dark colour, while the rod is dark metallic like steel. Some of the race day pictures show a similar difference. Front wheel camber - I think it is really unlikely it was set up different left to right. They do at ovals but not on proper race tracks. I think what you are seeing is that the steering is turned slightly. Find a picture of a Mercedes saloon with the steering turned to show an extreme example. In the case of saloons it gives a much better turning circle. For racing cars I guess it will be whatever is needed to give good handling at speed. nick 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 (edited) Dear Nick , you are right regarding the cambering of racing cars with no problems with their geometry . But as we know today there were exceptional problems with the left front wheel . In contemporary records we can read about stiffening measures of the chassis and exchange of the leaf springs . Massimino discovered the real reasons behind the jumping left front wheel some weeks after the race ! Seen from that point of view an altered cambering of the problem wheel could make sense imho . There are several photos which give the impression of a more cambered left front wheel . I also don´t know if I should represent it or not ( I guess I won´t for the same reasons as Olivier) but maybe it´s also important for your geometrical reconstruction ! Many greetings ! Hannes. Edited May 13, 2017 by Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 5 hours ago, NickD said: I think in your last picture, he is really beginning to look like the photos. Still don't see how you will get the quality up to the standard of the rest of the model. But you have been there so many times before. Thank you Nick for your encouragements. I am not a specialist of figures. The last time I made one, I was around 15, it was a french grenadier of the Imperial guard (I posted a photo of it on the thread). But I will try to do my best. I had bought 1 or 2 years ago a big book on the subject, without taking (or having) the time to read it up to now. It is a 300 pages book: I will try to learn some of the many techniques shown in that book and to apply them to my Bordino. But, like you, I begin to think he looks more and more to the famous champion. I must improve many details on his racing suit by sculpture, and of course try to give him "life" with painting techniques. A challenge at this scale, as said Sam with right. But you know my will, I will do my best... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 'Thermometer' - I do not think that is actually a thermometer but is pressure relief tube. At this time water systems were unpressurized, unlike today. On my car the thermometer is a circular glass & brass radiator cap. It has three coloured sections for cold, normal and hot and one wide needle. Even with great vibration it is easy to see the needle pointer pointing straight up for normal or to the right if its over heating. From the neck of the radiator [under the bonnet/hood] my radiator has a brass tube running sideways and then down; its the pressure relief tube. The water system is not pressurized, but if it does become so because the water gets too hot the pressure is vented through the tube. Some other cars in my club have the pressure relief tube under the bonnet/hood like mine and a temperature gauge on the instrument panel and not in the radiator cap like mine. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 (edited) Dear Fred , in my opinion this pressure relief system also can be seen on the radiator cap of the Mef ! To avoid hot water hitting the driver´s face in this case a downwards leading tube was installed imho . I guess there had been a spring inside the tube of our car and a valve opens if the pressure increases .Maybe this small window screen was also a protection for the driver not only because it was raining that day ! Many greetings ! Hannes Edited May 13, 2017 by Hannes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Hannes, Still sceptical about the camber being different. All the pictures that appear to show a difference in camber also show the steering is slightly turned (where you can see both). Let me know if you have a different view. Olivier, Book + practice + talent = masterpiece. No worries there then. Radiator cap - could find no pictures that showed a similar system on another car. Temperature measurement seemed to be through electrical means so it seems like it must have been for a different reason. I did find this link that purports to be a 1920s cap for a 509. Probably as close as we will ever get. http://www.prewarcar.com/images/caradvert/5857_1486440648_resized_6700_1332885400_res_cap_005.jpg Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 The radiator cap on a 1933 MGK3. The coil in the tube is to absorb vibrations and prevent the tube cracking from vibration induced stress The pipe runs down the side of the radiator. Often when the system gets hot the system pressurizes and not only is the pressure released but also steam and hot water 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Dear Nick , I´m also not sure if there were different adjustments on both frontal wheels .The vintage camera´s eyes betrayed us already very often . But what I know is that the cambered frontal wheels are very important for the whole appearance of the car . Even if I used your great virtual model for representing the right dimensions , comparing work with the photos is still necessary imho. Photo 2 for instance hangs on the wall right above my model . If the model´s right frontal wheel wheel stands upright you can see less of the radiator case compared with a slightly cambered wheel. When I´m done with the chassis and the bottom sheet one of the next steps will be to analyze the frontal axis with wheels and steering system , leaf springs and dampers regarding their exact geometrical situation . It´s the most complicated construction site of the whole model imho and it´s very easy to make big mistakes . Many greetings ! Hannes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 My crossbeam: - the rod is a carbon circlet of 2,5 mm diameter (the kit's one was too thin imho) - the central brace was made with 0,3 mm tin foil, rolled around and glued on the carbon circlet - the thin rod support of the ring uses the ref. 221 from Evergreen. Its lenght is 4,6 mm. - the ring was made from a section of the ref. 224 Evergreen (3,2 mm tube) and modified to be as accurate as possible. The whole was painted white alu Alclad, as all unpainted parts of my model. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 (edited) I was too impatient and couldn't wait to get (when?) the micro screws ordered from the Green Stuff World site. I decided to re-cut much more the head of the "12" screws of the kit (in width and in height). Now, my screws are much better dimensioned and they lie flush with the grille. I am very glad of that result and my grille is really over now, allowing me to validate the 22th step. P.S: notice that my relief pressure tube is now flat/ satin finished... Edited May 14, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 Step 22 OK. Notice that, for now, I prefer to leave the screws, in case I would need to remove my set radiator case. But, of course, they will not be visible at the end... I am gonna have to work on the front axle - in addition to my driver... -. I began to assemble the front dampers of step 21. The main problem with this front axle will be to determine its width. As Hannes, I think it is a bit wider than the rear one (imho, the photos show that difference). 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 (edited) Dear Olivier , very nice work ! As much as I know the front axle was 7 cm wider compared with the rear axle ,that means for our model about 3 mm on each side (despite the cambering of the wheels). In my opinion it could be easier to construct a complete scratchbuild instead of altering the kit´s axle . The steering system also should get involved imho. The horizontal situation depends on the spot where the axle is connected with the leaf springs . If it´s not on the right place it´s necessary to modify the leaf springs as well imho Many greetings ! Hannes Edited May 14, 2017 by Hannes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 (edited) Mmmm, thought about the front axle again . I think , a scratchbuild is not necessary .3 sections will do , one in the center ( necessary because the rails have a wider distance due the wider radiator case ) and two left and right of the mounting points for the leaf springs . Elongation and adjustment works to follow... Besides the horizontal situation of course the vertical situation is very important too for the right distance of the chassis to the ground . I don´t have a plan yet what kind of possible alterings could be made to achieve that goal . Many greetings ! Hannes Edited May 14, 2017 by Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 (edited) I have removed my screws fixing my frame to the radiator case (glued with liquid cyano). I had to check all was OK as on top view... ... as on frontal view. Phew! it's OK... I warn you, not so easy to have all "all good"... P.S: of course, my crossbeam will have to be shortened on left side (right side on the photo)... Edited May 14, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) Dear all, I was wondering what I should put instead of the screws I removed on the front part of my frame. I thought the best way to know would be to look again at our docs. Impossible to see this area, except a bit on the photo 3. As you can see, there seems to be a big "button". Pity, the image is not very neat in that area. 2 other details caught my attention on this enlargement: there seems to be a kind of "other crossbeam", or at least a rod under the engine. Indeed, what we see here can't be the one we ever know, situated more backwards. The third "?" is an "non identified object" (at least by me) that seems to be situated in front of the grille. Notice that the line of separation between grille and radiator case is clearly seen here, but we lose it under the horizontal rod... Your comment and ideas on this enlargement will be welcome. All the best to all Edited May 15, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 Bottom left; I think that might be part of the front brakes linkages looking at and considering the other two 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) The "thing" in front of the grille is not part of the car. Note the whole surrounding of the car was "photoshopped" to a white background. They forgot something. The "button" is the attachment of one of the shock absorbers....the other one less noticeable in front of the other. The rod underneath is a tensioner ...part 137D. To strenghten and stiffen the leaf spring attachment rod (parts 32B and 33B) See manual stage 23. Robin Edit: I did a lot, but nothing worth showing (working on manual stages 21 and 23). Made the brass clips for the spark plugs and I decided not to use copper tubes for the wires. I made them and looked at several possible positions to place them, but they either interfere with the bonnet, the engine itself or they block access to the spark plugs. There's one more option that's possible...a partial copper tube. Above the engine only, so not starting from the firewall. I'm not sure such tubes are an absolute must...when they are...I do them...when not...I won't. Perhaps @Black Knight can shine a light on this. I lack the knowledge. Edited May 15, 2017 by Robin Lous 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) I agree with Robin . The background was removed ( at least partially ) on the studio photos as we can see if we look trough the wheel spokes . These two buttoms over the steering cross-beam cannot belong to our car .This also shows us that the photographer was not a technical genius ! Hannes Edited May 15, 2017 by Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) Dear Sam , some time ago you wanted to know who built the master model of our 806 in the Centro Storico in Torino . My presumption at that time was it could have been Michele Conti . I suggested to do some research by contacting Maurizio Conti , the son of Michele . I also did some research and I had to learn that Maurizio is unfortunately already deceased too . But I found a lead in a British die-cast forum. ( Legacy motors presents forum 43 , 2013 ) A collector with the name Oliver Strebel-Ritter wrote a book about the Conti family together with Peter Wallmann and was looking for a publisher in 2013. His contact adress is osr @ worldcollector.co.uk and his phone number seems to be 044 ( 0 ) 7739514171 Maybe you or someone of our British members could contact Oliver in Twickenham so we could possibly unravel the secret who made the master model and the origin of drawing 1 as well ! Many greetings ! Hannes Edited May 15, 2017 by Hannes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 Dear Hannes great work from you again. I will write this person. Will be back in europe last week end of Mai and work on the Mef this summer. Best to all Sam 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) Today I recieved Sebastien´s book . What a wonderful publication ! A great praise for Sebastien ! When comparing some of the plans regarding other Fiat racing cars (plans dénsemble ) with our drawing 1 it seems to me that there is a very similar " style " even it´s a technical drawing . My theory was that drawing 1 showed an early stage of development of our car and was kept by Massimino. As we know about Massimino he also liked to work for his company in his vacancies ! This way he could have saved some plans from destruction. The irony is , if drawing 1 had not survived , no wrong master model would be in the Centro Storico and no wrong Protar kit would exist imho. And most likely this thread would not exist either ! Many greetings ! Hannes Edited May 16, 2017 by Hannes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) I was not happy with the aspect of my bonnets supports. The tin foil was a bad choice, because it is too soft. And the ribbed leather was not so good too. On the Delage, we can see a smooth aspect of the rubber: I decided to do that step again, using 0,2 mm thick acetate foil: The result is much better. I still have to make disappear the little visible parts of yellow acetate, with a thin paintbrush and flat black Vallejo: Edited May 16, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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