Hannes Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 I decided to alter my tank construction and removed the " step ". I think it ´s correct now and the stump with the oil filter is situated below the fuel tank according drawing 2 . Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 Hi Chaps, I have spent a stupidly long time trying to sort out the bonnet and radiator fairing lines. How hard can it be? Well for me it was surprisingly annoying. I was in two minds whether to bother posting this. The change from my previous posts are so subtle that they are probably not obvious. So for the connoisseurs and insomniacs... The results are given below: (great pictures are working tonight - LoL) This was not actually my main reference - too many of the key details are flattened or hidden. It does introduce the main elements. All the work has been done from the back of the bonnet forward. In red is my body core object on which details can be added. Don't worry about the bottom edge... it is deliberately long. The blacklines are a set of 3D curves that mark the key outlines. I use them to provide the basis for the object surface such as the body buck and bonnet blisters. (note: I have still to remove the line for the lower fairing on the lefthand side. This was the most important image supported by the corresponding view from the front. Even with these, which are the best we have I have not really finalised the lower surface of the radiator fairing. I will go back and play with that I think. Apart from the size of the gap at the rear which is surprisingly large, the rear bonnet edge is pretty straightforward. The cam fairings are, as has been noted before, modified cones with spherical fronts. It is noticeable in the view above that the shape of the car deviated from these forms at the forward lower edge. It seems to be dented in some way. I have not yet represented this detail. The louvre edges are all straight lines - as one might think but good to know. Then we get to the front edge of the bonnets. This was the first problem. I think the problem is that it is wider than one might expect. The gap was also a problem. It is worth noting that the black line that marks where the bottom of the fairing meets the chassis is straight, starting on the outer edge of the chassis and moving forward. For ages I thought there must be a parallel section. But there isn't. The upside is there is no crease to figure out. The downside is that it must have complicated mounting on the radiator. Moving to the front and focussing on the 3D lines, there are three elements. The radiator housing which, as stated above tapers down from rear to front. It must have folded at the front edge to provide mounting points for the outer trim, and the grill. The outer trim is surprisingly complex. In sided view, it is straight in the middle-section and bends forward at the top and down at the bottom. The grill is not particularly uniform (as Olivier probably knows only too well. The curvature in the middle is different from the top and bottom sections. This photo also shows the outer wire that ran round the grill and was trapped between the radiator housing and the outer trim. As I suspect you all know. The engine starter hole is attached to the grill not the outer fairing. Finally the lefthandside. It is pleasingly symmetric for the housing, bonnet panels and louvres. The cam fairing is different being further forward. As I said, largely me catching up. Let me know your thoughts Regards Nick 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 One other thing, unrelated to my last post. The discussion we had a few weeks ago about removing the bodywork. I had intended to look for fasteners. There are surprisingly few externally. The only bolts are on that ugly plate just behind the handbrake lever. So maybe it just bolted on the inside. While I was looking I wondered about the exhaust. To remove the body you either have to remove the exhaust from the body or break the exhaust at some point. The latter option sounds crazy but there is a very prominent joint in just the right place so maybe that is what they did. To disconnect the exhaust from the body would have involved more effort. The instrument panel would be the other consideration. To avoid faff, surely they would have mounted it to the rear U frame independently from the body. Unfortunately none of the photos is good enough to tell us. Any thoughts? Am I just rediscovering stuff the less forgetful already know. If right, a presentation option for a model would be bodywork with exhausts on a stand and the rolling chassis separate. Regards Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 On my Austin 7 there are just 4 bolts holding the body to the chassis. I don't have to break the exhaust joint to lift the body off. If I use the long exhaust, not the short racing one in the photo, I just need to undo a single U bolt support behind the rear wing There are only about 10 or 12 wires which need disconnected, and a couple of mechanical linkages; ignition advance/retard and hand accelerator/throttle and the speedo cable which need undoing, plus one U clamp holding the steering column up in place My son and I could undo all these and lift the body off inside 15 minutes, and we were not in a hurry. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted October 6, 2018 Author Share Posted October 6, 2018 Complications aside I really must say, that is awesome stuff you sketched there Nick! Makes me long for continuing my own model... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 Many thanks , dear Nick for your great work again ! In my opinion some confusing details are the result of improvisation . For example : The 451 bodywork was already completed when a different chassis for the 406 engine was required . Same goes for the scoop on the right side .Therefore the edge of the bodywork below the exhaust is slightly slanted and the scoop´s frontal edge as well as we can see on your first ( photo 28 ) pic . The Codognato painting shows louvres on the small sheets below the manifolds which are parallel to the ones on the bonnets . There´s no reason why they should be slanted , but they are . I guess they used most of the existing parts and adapted them as good as possible because there was a big time pressure . I´ll represent the bonnets and the scoop edges as vertical on my model for aesthetical reasons but I´m forced to keep the slanted louvres on the parts below the manifolds . Grrr! My philosophy : Slightly idealized but also very close to the original . It´s tightrope walking... Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 Great work, as always, chaps! Cheers, H 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 Black Knight - A fascinating insight as always. Thanks for debunking my naivety. So to summarise, your vote would be for the body, instruments and frames to all be a single assembly? With the exhausts being detachable? Roy - I think we all look forward to your return! ATB Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 Merry Christmas to all ! These three contemporary paintings remind us of a heroic time here in Europe. My own modelling progress stagnates at the moment because I have to care about my future first . I want to wish you and your families some recreating and quiet holidays ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 Lovely paintings, Hannes....very atmospheric. Thank you for sharing them. Merry Christmas to you, too, dear Hannes. I look forward to the return of your build. Cheers, H 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 Thanks Hannes, for the paintings and the wishes! and thanks for going on following and encouraging me in my challenging Ford Mustang project! Like Harvey, I look forward to the return of your build... Merry Christmas to you too! Cheers Olivier 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 A happy new year to all ! 2019 will be a crucial year for all indigenous Europeans .I hope that many will finally wake up and take the right decisions . I will emigrate in the next months and hopefully find a safe haven where I will be able to go on with my modelling work . I want to wish you all the best ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 I hope you find the peace that you seek, dear Hannes. Happy 2019! Cheers, H 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted January 6, 2019 Author Share Posted January 6, 2019 A bit of follow-up research findings then. The following drawing additions including commentary are mostly correct, but not all is as I had understood before: On 4/20/2017 at 1:23 AM, Roy vd M. said: - The blue arrows represent the direction of forces if the brake pedal was applied. - The red lines are the brake linkage from brake pedal to the metal piece that connected to the brake cables. - The green lines are the brake cables plus the part that held them. 1. This is the brake pedal. 2. This wheel was at the bottom of the brake pedal. It had a cam that was, through a rod, connected to: 3. A booster wheel. It rotated as it was pulled forward by the rod coming from 2. 4. Another rod. If the brake pedal was applied, the cam on wheel 5 was pulled. 5. This is the metallic part to which the brake cables and brake configuration system were connected. If the brake was applied this part would rotate. 6. This is a cam that was connected to the metallic part I just described. The cam was pulled up upon applying the brake pedal. 7. The rear brake cable was pulled toward the front of the car. 8. The front brake cable was pulled toward the rear of the car. The 'booster wheel' as I called it, is in fact a mechanical brake drum containing a servo. The Delage had the exact same thing and I've studied my pictures and videos plus the internet for hours trying to figure out how it works. Not all questions are answered, but the following I have learned. Please refer to the updated image below. The link '3a' is the actuator to the servo. It's a type of clutch. By pulling the link, the brake drum comes into contact with the servo. Compare to a regular car clutch where a connection is made between propeller shaft and engine upon release of the clutch. The difference with the brake drum is that actuation happens not upon release, but upon pressing the brake pedal. The 'disk' as seen in the drawing is then driven by the propeller shaft but only for less than a quarter of a rotation. As soon as this brief rotation is finalized, the drum brakes are fully pressed and the car will slow down until coming to an eventual standstill. If the brake pedal is released however, the 'clutch' is disconnected and the propeller shaft gets to only drive the rear wheels and not the brakes. If the brake pedal is partially pressed, the 'clutch' slips, leading to less brake power. The three links '3b' as indicated on the image, were probably installed to counter link '3a'. In order to apply the 'clutch' a scissor-cutting motion is needed so at least one of those three links is necessary. On the Delage it is one thick metal rod also acting as support for the handbrake. I assume (but an assumption is all it is) that on the Fiat there are three connectors because they were a bit more smaller and fragile than on the Delage. So in other words, if my assumption is correct there were three mounting points (=to the gearbox, on the Fiat) instead of one linking point (=to the handbrake mount, on the Delage). The drum itself was firmly mounted on the gearbox; the links '3b' are solely meant to counter the brake servo. The rest of the drawing + commentary is correct. On 6/19/2017 at 10:50 PM, NickD said: One final question. What are the "star" handles for? There is one for each brake cable on each side of the car. It does not appear to be a brake tensioner. I think thats what the rods and adjusters are for. The "stars" are so big that they must have been used routinely. Could they just have been for brake balance by moving the cable near or further away from the centre pivot. If so how did they make sure all 4 wheels were correctly adjusted. It was clever but I have no idea what it was for! On the Delage, one such handle was used by the drivers to quickly adjust left OR right brakes. If they felt brakes at one side didn't react well anymore, those cables could be tightened. I'm sure the handles on the Fiat had the same purpose, providing more tuning possibilities than on the Delage. I guess the star wheels would have (as does the Delage) a gearwheel at their ends, to finetune the cable length. Regarding hand brake: So my reasons for voting teeth are: You can see the gears The rod does not meet the handle There is a similar rod for the front brake cable where it would appear to be unnecessary if its purpose is part of the handbrake. Drawing 2 suggests this is the mechanism So does the model. I think this is right but I am still confused. The brake mechanism on drawing 2 seems to show that the pedal operates via some sort of servo. The servo operates the "star" bars through a tube or rod. All straightforward. I think Roy did a drawing of the brakes many moons ago but I could not find it. The wierd bit is that the "star" bar on the handbrake side must move the handle when the brake is applied. Some sort of clutch would be better so the handle does not move but it looks simpler than that. It looks like the handbrake leaver should move when the footbrake is applied. A locking mechanism also seems to be missing. Surely the brake did not just stay on due to the weight of the handle. Who knows. Indeed you can see the gears, but if you look closely you see that they are only featured on one side of the gear wheel (or so it seems). Furthermore, they appear to be not straight teeth but sharp ones. To me it seems that the hand brake was a very simple construction (surely to compensate for the complex regular brake assembly), that kept a pre-chosen position of the brake actuators in place. But how did the teeth 'come free'? Well, in photo 2 the gear wheel seems to be offset (=not concentric to the handbrake mounting axle). Therefore if the handbrake lever was pushed forward, the gear wheel was detached from the brake actuator subassembly. So in my view the procedure to use the handbrake would have been: 1) First, to fully apply the foot brake. 2) Second, to pull back the handbrake. That would fix the brake actuator's position. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 A very fine analysis , Roy . Many thanks for that Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 Thank you for those revisions, Roy. A very interesting read, indeed. These were very complex beasts and I must say, it's an absolute pleasure to try to recreate the flying Fiat. Good, old-fashioned engineering!!!! Cheers, H 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 Hello to all, I was contacted today by a french modeler, Emmanuel Marin, who read this thread and decided to build a 1/6 version. He doesn't mind (on the contrary) me to share this link to his site with you. Here it is: https://www.emarin-regard.fr/ Cheers, O 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pouln Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 That’s a fantastic build. Thanks for sharing it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Yes, I look forward to see the final result. The face of the driver is particularly expressive and "living", but the whole build is fantastic indeed, and the presentation is very clean and pleasant. I suggested to Emmanuel to suscribe on Brit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now