Totally Mad Olivier Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 Like Nick, I am sorry to learn that, Hannes, and I am happy to read you feel fine now. Yes, I indeed, I have a new dream team on my side on this « new » thread, and this could allow me to get an accurate P-51D of the 8th A.F. The problem for me is always the same, reading and writing on several threads takes time and if I begin to read all ones, I won’t be able to go on with my build, considering that my wife wants also to share things with me (our hobby interests her very little) and that my pro activity is very crowded too. I have to focus more on my build in the next months, but I will try to go and see your progress anyway from time to time, for sure. All the best Olivier 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 Hi guys, I'm glad you're feeling a bit better, Hannes and look forward to seeing your progress again. On the subject of who built the CS model, I came across this little article while searching for reference pics of the Napier Railton (next project)... http://www.cmamodels.com/sb-manuel-olive-sans-2.php Cheers, H 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 Dear Harvey , thanks for these informations ! Olive Sans is a legend - contrary to the Morselli brothers and I doubt he built the 806 , commissioned by grandson Agnelli . And I guess , Manuel Olive would have represented the important engine and discovered the error .Sans was famous for representing even the unvisible parts of a car with the same precision as the visible parts and that´s not the case regarding the model in the CS imho.The very bad " restauration " including wrong rear wheels , missing parts , rust and so on indicates that it´s not a very valuable model .Visible screws for mounting the bodywork and allen screws are not signs of a master modeller .There are many 1:5 models in the CS . Maybe we find out more ! Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted March 26, 2018 Author Share Posted March 26, 2018 A friend asked me if Vittorio Jano, the designer of the Alfa Romeo P2, could be given credit for any part of the Fiat 806 design. I wonder if you knowledgable guys, @Hannes @Olivier de St Raph @harveyb258 @NickD @CrazyCrank @sharknose156 and/or others, could correct, nuance or confirm my answer: Going through that part of literature that I have available at home, I think the quick answer should be ‘no’. The elaborate answer: the Fiat 806 design was started, in my previous-research-based opinion, from scratch around the beginning of 1927. Cimarosti (‘The complete history of Grand Prix motor racing’, page 64) says that Vittorio Jano was hired by Alfa at the end of 1923, so more than three years before. Compared to the 805, the Fiat 806 was modern and innovative in many ways. I think it is fair to say that Jano borrowed substantial parts of the 805 design and implemented them into the Alfa Romeo P2 project. Only indirectly would Jano thus be responsible for parts of the Fiat 806, to the extent of the 806 having been based on the 805. Being two totally different cars (compare both engines, for example), I think such influence would be minor, if any it all. Faurès in his book ‘Fiat en Grand Prix 1920-1930” specifies Jano’s job change to have happened in September (1923) after being made an offer he couldn’t refuse by Enzo Ferrari in person (pages 109, 110 and 112). Page 113 points out some similarities between the 805 and P2 designs. One more lead on page 120: even after Jano’s transfer to the Alfa team, Fiat still raced with the 805 (1924). In 1925-1926 Fiat designed a new engine (the 451). Then in 1927 there was the 406 engine, to be fitted into the Fiat 806. Nowhere in Faurès’ chapter of the 806 Jano is given any credit for the 451 / 406 / 806 designs. The engine was designed by Tranquillo Zerbi; the chassis and body by Alberto Massimino. In ‘Trent’Anni di Corse storia della Fiat’ by Boschi I wasn’t able to find anything interesting in this respect. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Dear Roy ,as far as I know Zerbi joined Fiat after Jano´s leaving .The 451 2-stroke project was the successor of the Causan engine . Zerbi´s main task was to develop engines for aeroplanes and I guess this 451 engine was supposed to be an aircraft engine as well .But as we all know there were too many problems and in winter 1926 / 27 the testing was stopped and the simultaneous developed and longer 406 4-stroke engine was in charge .In my opinion the chassis and parts of the bodywork were altered after that .The 451 engine was quite high with 6 hanging pistons and one crankshaft over the other one , maybe the "sandwiching "construction was necessary due it´s height . There´s not much resemblance of the 806 to the 805 . The steering wheel and it´s ignition adjusting system seem to be very similar as we can see on page 94 in Sebastien´s book . I suppose Jano traited the secrets of the new developed Roots blower which became a compressor by cooling down the induction air .The patent was given in 1923 to Fiat . Agnelli was furious because the competitors used his system without any shame and ended the predominance of the Fiat racing cars . Other lured-away engineers were more to blame than Jano imho , the english company Sunbeam was copying the whole 805 racing car and their racers were known as " Green Fiats" Many greetings ! Hannes ( who is about to improve the bodywork of his model ) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 yes indeed Jano had already left.... also i think the 806 s innovations clearly influenced all the others and not the other way around. being distracted by the beauty of these cars sometimes make me forget how cutting edge they were and how fierce competition was on the technical side... like today but on ugly cars ( by the way indy cars are now more beautiful than F1 i think... what s next ? covered wheels and a tank bumber ) cheers to all 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted March 29, 2018 Author Share Posted March 29, 2018 Thanks guys I forwarded him both your answers to add to my own. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted March 31, 2018 Author Share Posted March 31, 2018 That is one astonishingly low car. Looks beautiful too. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 She's looking fantastic, Hannes!! Well done! Cheers, H 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 After recovering from some time of illness my passion came back and I decided to slim my bodywork walls .Because I modelled it in a sculptural way there were walls with thick layers of filler . I removed great parts of the Protar bodywork and replaced them by brass sheets . The frontal part below the fairing was the most difficult one . I also established a construction for holding the bodywork in an exact position as we can see on the second photo . The next steps will be the bonnets and the radiator case and not the fairing . It´s easier to adapt these parts without the fairing , that´s why I will scratchbuild it later . Many greetings ! Hannes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Glad you're feeling better, Hannes.....HAPPY MODELLING! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 I join Harvey to wish you a good recovering and a lot of fun with this amazing build. I remember our saga with nostalgia, even if I must admit I found another outstanding team on my Missouri Armada P-51D thread. Britmodeller is really a great forum, and it is worth the effort to speak english - and have to translate too... - even if I suppose there are also good forums in french... Because you follow my thread, Hannes, I take advantage of this message to thank you for your very kind yesterday message. I am back home, and even if there is pain (what is normal), my intervention was a success, removing 3 calculus (1 in the ureter, 2 in the left rein). I should be able to return to my workbench from tomorrow... All the best my friend Olivier 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 I´m very relieved to hear that this intervention was a success , dear Olivier ! Everything will be fine .I also admire the profound knowledge of your Mustang dream team ! I´m sure your Missouri Armada will become a great model . btw : did you see Plastheniker-Jürgen´s MB truck scratchbuild on the rfi-section? I´m blown away by his skills ! All the best , dear Olivier ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 30 minutes ago, Hannes said: did you see Plastheniker-Jürgen´s MB truck scratchbuild on the rfi-section? No, I didn't. Can you give us the link, I can't find it? Thanks in advance Cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 It´s on the first page on the ready for inspection section . It´s an old truck from the 50´s ,nickname Tausendfüssler .Maybe you need to change the " sort by " system . Have a look ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Hannes, Beautiful and clean as always - glad it is moving forward again. Glad to hear you are getting better Olivier, Glad to hear you are getting better too. ATB Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted April 6, 2018 Author Share Posted April 6, 2018 Hannes and Sam, your opinions were much appreciated! One remark regarding this part: On 3/27/2018 at 2:56 AM, Hannes said: Dear Roy ,as far as I know Zerbi joined Fiat after Jano´s leaving . Yesterday I did some more reading in Sébastien Faurès' book and found this on page 82: “La paternité des nouvelles vouitures peut donc a priori être établie comme suit: elles sont conçues par Zerbi, mais son supérieur, Cavalli, garde un contrôle attentif de l’ensemble, voire impose certaines idées… Par ailleurs, Vittorio Jano est responsable des dessinateurs qui exécutent les plans de détails. Dans une lettre adressée à Vincenzo Bertarione en juillet 1923 (publiée in extenso plus loin), Vittorio Lovera, ayant l’intention de se renseigner sur les Fiat du Grand Prix de l’ACF, écrit clairement: “J’irai voir Jano et Zerbi pour avoir des informations plus précises.” Cette lettre corrobore donc l’attribution des Fiat Grand Prix 1923 au tandem Zerbi-Jano.” Freely translating into: “The new model’s spiritual fathers are Zerbi (design), Cavalli (checks and rechecks, imposing several ideas), Jano (responsible for the draftsmen who create the detail drawings). In a letter dated 1923, Vittorio Lovera who wants to learn more about Fiat’s participation in the French Grand Prix, writes “I will talk to Jano and Zerbi for more precise information”. Therefore, the 1923 Grand Prix car (=Fiat 805) can be seen as the joint responsibility of Zerbi and Jano” 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 You are right , dear Roy ! Zerbi joined Fiat in August 1919 . Before that he developed Diesel engines for submarines . In 1925 he started to develop aeroplane engines . Mussolini , who became Italy´s dictator in 1925 as well prefered aeroplane races ( Schneider cup and so on ). It´s possible that there´s a connection imho . Zerbi as a committed Fascist most likely profited by this government change . Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Similar to the bodywork I slimmed the walls of my scratchbuilt radiator case , For stability reasons a combination of thin brass and plastic plates was necessary . The next steps will be the bonnets supports and the bonnets . It will be quite a challenge but highly rewarding . Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 I can't wait to see more of your work. dear Hannes. I know for a fact that you're more than capable of any challenge that you may be given. Great pics btw...good pussy-shot too!!!! Cheers, H 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Many thanks , dear Harvey and dear Olivier ! . The bonnets will be my favorite parts of the bodywork . As you can see if you look at the kit´s parts there are 38 louvres on the upper ( straight ) row It´s the same mistake as on drawing 1. In reality there were 45 louvres . If you add the 7 missing louvres the bonnets will reach their correct lenght in my scale . Besides the rims size and the appropriate Mef tyres size this circumstance was one of the reasons why I decided to work in this odd 1 : 10,9 scale .( disadvantage : I need to magnify my engine ) The triangular louvres rows are OK regarding their lenght and numbers of louvres . The cam fairings need to get elongated and altered . I will use my Protar bonnets and will add parts of the Italeri bonnets , strenghtened by brass sheets . This will be an adventure but I look forward to these works because in the end there will be new impressions and I´m very curious how it will look like . Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 We look forward too, my dear Hannes... It is very special for me to see your Fiat 806 progress on our thread, while I am now so focused on a totally different build. I am still learning nearly every day something new, in model making as in historical aspects. Model making is a soft drug... Many greetings and keep the good! Olivier 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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