Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Hannes]

Many thanks , dear Olivier . My progress has been slow in the last weeks , there were so many things happening in my private life and I had some trial and error moments with my new mini lathe as well .

But now the first shaft is made and I will show a pic soon . The next complicated task will be the front axle with it´s bendings and I will also need an invisible suspension . I stay optimistic of course  and I hope my model will be worth the effort .

Many greetings !  Hannes

[NickD]

Olivier,

 

Absolutely marvellous - So many set backs. So many times you just ripped it up and started again. And yet the result is so clean and crisp. We all doubted the idea of putting Bordino on board but that worked too. We all thought bonnets were a good idea so that is what you did. Attention to detail superb. Well done mate.

 

Couple of comments on your workshop:

 

• You have a very tolerant wife to allow you to take over the kitchen like that - Lol
• You also have confirmed a theory I have. It does not matter how big your workshop, the actual working area is never more than 50mm bigger than the model you are currently building!
• Finally -really jealous - much nicer than my spidery garage.

 

ATB

 

Nick

Edited September 14, 2017 by NickD
typo

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thank you so much Nick, your kind words move me.

And thank you for your delicious humour 

All the best my friend

Olivier

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I have added an enlargement of my last photo above (edit) to have a better idea of proportions. This enlargement shows I should have improved my frame reinforcement, not good (hole too small, sheet too thick etc.). I thought I could make it, but with the wheel in the middle, it is now nearly impossible. This is a point the next builders will have to improve. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
correction

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Message sent  today to the Alessandria Veteran club car "P. Bordino" ([email protected]), joining the last photos of my build (on the black cardboard). Maybe they will show more interest than some other interlocutors we had during these last months of "research and scratchbuild".

I have sent these photos also to Paul Kierstein and Sebastien Faures, and of course to Juan Manuel...  

 

Buongiorno,

 

Sono Olivier Pansieri, modellista francese. Ho pensato che la vostra associazione sarebbe interesta di scoprire il primo modellino (scala 1/12) molto vicino alla realtà della Fiat 806 che fu l’ultima Fiat correndo in un G.P. Era 90 anni fa, il 4/09/1927. Ho voluto rendere omaggio a Pietro Bordino, il Diavolo Rosso. Il mio modellino è il primo che rappresenta il pilota nella macchina.

Ho cominciato il modellino più di un anno fa, e l'ho finito ieri.

Per questo modellino, un lavoro di ricerca considerevole è stato fatto, non solo, ma con un gruppo di modellisti appassionati, da ogni parte del mondo, su un forum internet di discussione e e scambio: "Fiat 806 research and scratchbuild", in inglese. 

Su questo forum, se voi siete interesti, vedrete particolarmente come ho trasformato una replica in resina di Sir Lawrence (Lawrence d’Arabia) in Pietro Bordino.

Vedrete anche che abbiamo trovato documenti rari e con che cura, ho, a partire del modellino molto approssimativo di Italeri (riedizione di un kit Protar), successo a rendere le vere forme di questa auto di corsa.

Sono andato a Torino vedere il Centro Storico della Fiat e il Mauto. A Naples (U.S.A), ho visitato il Rev’s institute, che ci ha portato un aiuto preciozo. Un altra persona che è stata molto importante era Sebastien Faures, l’autore dell’eccelente libro dedicato alle Fiat di corsa (1920-1930).

 

Sperando che voi sarete interesti, vi prego di gradire l’espressione dei miei sentimenti distinti.

 

Dr Olivier Pansieri

[Hannes]

 

 

[Hannes]

My propulsion drive shaft now is mounted . The part is more massive as I thought . And fastcat is right ! If there had been a seat on top of this club a very small driver with very long legs would be the ideal person for driving this car . The part was made out of aluminium and the shafts for the rear axle will be shorter  but very massive as well

 

 I want to add some personal remarks . Olivier finished his build with a great result .My main task in the last months was to support him and to get  an deeper insight  in the car´s history and it´s technical structure . I tried to do my best to keep some research alive .Without assumptions and speculations even pure science would not develop further . Doubting what everybody else believes belongs to the same category . This position makes vulnerable for destructive criticism . I  always felt a solidarity by Olivier , Sam , Nick and Harvey for instance . And I want to stay in contact with them .

I feel the opposite regarding the founder of this thread .It was a great human dissapointment for me . That´s why you won´t see and hear me very often on this thread anymore .

Í will  support Harvey of course and Olivier regarding his Mef if they wish  .And I will focus on my own build and accelerate the speed .

 

I´m not interested at all to get quoted regarding some of my last sentences  followed by  a reply with abundances of words . A court-room is a better place for that and I will not respond like Sam did .

This topic now is closed for me .

Many greetings !  Hannes

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

And now, let's play (Hannes, sorry, you don't play, it is too easy for you!). There was a detail missing on my build. I couldn't dare it and I have added it (I will explain how a bit later). Do you find it? (imho not difficult for the 806 experts you all are):

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I wait for your replies on our team conversation, so Hannes will take part...

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Now that I read better Hannes previous post, I can see he wants to stop writing in this thread. I regret it. There were strong personalities in the team, and this caused sometimes some trouble. Hannes has, it's true, a strong personality, as Roy, as Sam. I can understand everyone, but it is a pity that these self esteem considerations, as respectable as they can be, have wasted a bit the pleasure to share on this thread.

Roy has a problem with Hannes because he was very sure of himself and, with his enthousiasm, forgot sometimes - as I probably did myself - to remain more humble and careful with assumptions. And when Roy has something to say... 

Hannes and Dave have very cleverly put the guns away very quickly. 

May I hope Hannes and Roy will do the same?

All the best to all, I have only friends here, we share the same passion, and even if we are all different, we should be able to respect ourselves.

Let's not forget we are here to have fun, life is so short. And I hope I will get replies to my game! 

 

P.S: this thread was indeed initially created by Roy (who made a lot for it the first months) but may we say it is still his one?? It is a long time Hannes and me are the main contributors, what is no more the case for Roy. Creating a new thread, while Harvey ever created his one, would be a non sense for me.

Anyway, for me, things will be simple: I will build, now that my model is really over, the OOB version, without posting very much, as there is no interest for that.

When the OOB version will be over (I hope within 2 or 3 months), I will post comparisons photos on this thread, our thread to all, not Roy's one.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I got a reply from the secretary of the Alessandria Bordino association. They have black and white photos that I hope they will send me after scanning (they have paper photos). 

It is not impossible that some of these photos are interesting for us.

I will keep you informed.

I am a bit sad, no reply to my game...

Let's not leave our thread die!

Olivier

[Hannes]

It´s the tabs ,dear Olivier .Great work !   Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Ok Hannes, you win the game!

Indeed, seeing the last enlargement, I saw again these tabs and I thought: it is not possible not to represent them!

So, one more time, I will be the first very probably to represent these tabs...

I have cut 3 mm lenght portions of 0,5 mm diameter Albion Alloys brass tubes (except the 2 frontest ones, shorter) and glued them with spaces of around 3 mm too between them.

Then I painted them red.

Of course, it is a simple solution compared with the construction you imagined. But it is much better than nothing and after all, no one will return my midel to see its underbody! I just tried to represent what I saw...

In the same time, I have improved a bit the frame reinforcement. Impossible to enlarge the hole but I increased a bit the sheets to the outside.

Now that I have done also the left side, my build is really over and I will carry it with many precautions to my cabinet where it will be exposed.

But before, I made several photos that I will post  as soon as possible, waiting for a good pro photographer to do a fine job as yours did for your Mef.

Olivier 

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , I was thinking about what you said : It´s our thread in the meantime and the founder is just a member. It´s a different issue between Dave and myself .

We both reached out our hands and I hope it will be OK in the future . I was reaching out my hand several times in the other case and it was always rejected, that´s why it´s definitely over . It´s a matter of character and not  of strong personalities .

Now your model looks very completed with the tabs . The only point I disagree with you  are the parts with the louvres under the manifolds .

I look forward to see the new photos !

Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

The following photos were taken with my I phone 7. For a non pro photographer like me, it seems to me easier to get quite good photos than with my Canon Powershot G11...

The tabs are a kind of cherry on top (cerise sur le gâteau in french):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hannes]

The Tamiya magazine  should be very interested in your model ! And it has to be on the front page !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

... but the editor in chief was angry knowing I had taken part to a thread, before my article was published, despite that I had mentioned that to him long ago. A misunderstanding... Anyway, I want to keep my author's freedom to write and show my work here or there.

 

 

 

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , I feel with you ! But  I think , Italian magazines could be very interested ,  they just don´t know your model . I wonder why there seems to be not a single Italian member who,s interested in our work . And there are a lot of Tifosi who  are curious regarding their own motorsport history !  This issue  will possibly turn into a new direction by your new contact ! Just ask them and I´m sure you will find a good publisher in Italy !  
Many greetings !  Hannes

[Roy vd M.]

9 hours ago, Hannes said:

I feel the opposite regarding the founder of this thread .It was a great human dissapointment for me .

 

Hannes.. if you have a problem with me, I welcome you to send me a PM. If not, please don't use this topic to slander. 

 

I choose not to reply in personal accusations. Those who read this will make up their own minds based on past discussions. 

[Roy vd M.]

7 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

P.S: this thread was indeed initially created by Roy (who made a lot for it the first months) but may we say it is still his one?? It is a long time Hannes and me are the main contributors, what is no more the case for Roy. Creating a new thread, while Harvey ever created his one, would be a non sense for me.

I never felt this to be 'my' thread but, from the beginning, hoped that here we could find a gathering space for all knowhow, to have that knowhow organised (mainly photos and drawings) and, also to discuss the (semi-)scratchbuilds deriving from all research. Everyone who contributed has a part in the success of this thread. Unfortunately we were not able to organise all the knowhow, simply because it's too much and this isn't a book that is easily edited before print... as well as there are many uncertainties, theories and assumptions (made by everyone, myself included) that are difficult to assess, often impossible to verify and always difficult to characterise in a topic such as this. We did however successfully collect all photographic (and drawing-related) evidence we found of this car, with the exception of some HR versions that cannot be posted in this thread due to copyright reasons.

 

The scratchbuilds we have seen have been beautiful. I love Oliviers model and it still makes my eyebrows be raised each time I look at the pictures. This is almost certainly 95% or better true to what the car would have looked like, versus 65% or less if looking at the Italeri kit. Hannes' model seems to have more voluptuous lines and manages to enter the photo lens more gracefully. But that has always been Hannes' intention, as an artist. As said before, I hope to see more progress on Hannes' car. 

 

So yes, the atmosphere in this topic may have been grim from time to time; and that's probably typical of a subject the participants are as passionate about as... model builders who have found each other in pursuit of a truer representation of a car (!) than any modelling company could offer... such car being the subject of mystery and facts long forgotten. But in the end at least one great model has been the fruit of all those deliberations. Olivier has been strongly influenced by several opinions posted by several contributors on this thread and even if not every single piece of input was necessarily correct, it's fair to say that his model could never have looked as good without the participation of all in this thread. I am sure the same will eventually be true for Hannes' version of this racer, as well as Harvey's creation. Even if his build is treated in a separate thread, Harvey is never far away and the influence of this tread has been gracefully acknowledged. 

 

It is therefore not hard to guess that in my view this thread has become a success. Even the only 'fail' (=no database-overview of knowledge) could be overcome by anyone who has a strong will to build the car as realistically as possible, through reading this thread, page after page, and making personal notes. Perhaps this will someday be done and perhaps that person will kindly surprise us by sharing his summaries, to thank the original contributors of this thread for all their work. Or just due to a willingness to share information, as did all who have written anything in the thread.

 

Anyway I do hope this thread will remain alive as long as anyone is busy working on a better representation of the Fiat 806, and that it will be reopened if interest in this legendary car is renewed... such having happened before in the '70s, the '90s and the 2010s. 

Quote

Anyway, for me, things will be simple: I will build, now that my model is really over, the OOB version, without posting very much, as there is no interest for that.

When the OOB version will be over (I hope within 2 or 3 months), I will post comparisons photos on this thread, our thread to all, not Roy's one.

After all this, don't you think 1 month should suffice to tackle this 'easy-peasy' kitty?  

[Totally Mad Olivier]

11 hours ago, Hannes said:

I think , Italian magazines could be very interested ,  they just don´t know your model

Yes maybe, but Juan told me he often had met problems too with many editors and, furthermore, I admit it would be easier for me to write an article in french.

However, I have tried to follow your idea and have a look at italian editors. I found Auriga publishing, that, through others, has a publication dedicated to static model making, Model Time.

But despite what I said above, I will try to come in contact with T2M first. If the editor is still disrespectful with me, I will go and see elsewhere. If we can work together in respect conditions, what I wish, I could publish my article in T2M.

I remember Crazy Crank had suggested to me long ago to come in contact with a prestigious internet editor. Thierry, can you recall me the name, please, I have forgotten it?

Edited September 16, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

5 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

It is therefore not hard to guess that in my view this thread has become a success.

For me too, Roy, indisputably! and I always repeat I would never have been so far without everyone's here talent and will. I would have done my best, as I did for my previous models, but union made the strenght of this amazing thread, 175 pages and it is not over, even if my build is. One more time, I want to thank Britmodeller and wish a long life to this great place of sharing!

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

5 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

After all this, don't you think 1 month should suffice to tackle this 'easy-peasy' kitty?  

I have my pro activity and my personal life, I 'll do my best. And I was so optimistic about my build (remember I wanted it to be over in last february and finally it was born just yesterday, the 15/09!). That said, I understand you were joking 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I have edited my post above about T2M, and sent a mail to the editor in chief. We shall see...

[Fastcat]

Olivier,

            Most editors are wary of covering articles which have already been published on the internet. It's because potential readers can view the topic (and much more than any magazine can print) for free. That's why many regular magazine contributors only give a tantalising glimpse of their finished models with a comment that the full build will be covered in "XXXX" magazine. Inevitably this means that they work mainly on their own do their research privately.

 

So don't be too disappointed if you don't find a sympathetic editor, particularly if you aren't a regular contributor to their magazine. I remember when I made my first tentative offering to Alan Hall. I went to a great deal of trouble to meet their article submission rules and spent a lot of time writing it until I was satisfied that it read well and looked good. It was rejected mainly because it was a civil aircraft! I also suspect he had his own team of authors and didn't want to depart from that. I didn't write anything else for many years until I was asked to do so by editor of a new magazine who then published several before going the way of many paper magazines.

 

Therefore, don't give up but be prepared! It's not an insult to have an article rejected - it's just one of those things where your work doesn't tie in with the editor's thinking.

 

Dave