Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Totally Mad Olivier]

My 806 is in my auto body shop... Removing all the rivets required a new sanding and painting job, in delicate conditions. So delicate that my front left wheel has fallen again and so for my left front exhaust!

You'll understand, Hannes, that now I begin to look forward my build to be over.

I will take advantage (every cloud has a sliver lining) to modify my wheel fastener (CC's correction uneasy wheel in place).

 

 

 

 

 

[Hannes]

Stay calm , dear Olivier , everything will be all right !  And you will  get a super unique model in the end !  An interesting small discovery : The gasoline consumption of our car was about 35 litres per 100 km .

This means for the Milano GP about only 20 litres  of gasoline were required . But for 500 km the tank with 170 litres was possibly too small or too big  if there was a refilling provided during a pit-stop .

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I stay calm, I stay calm, Hannes. In my modelers life, I have known so many complicated situations, I should resolve this one too... Thank you for your encouragements anyway!

You will have noticed the hinge row with alternation red/ unpainted...

 

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

A bad experience with ALC 101 Alclad (aluminium):

we are here also to share problems met with a product. So:

I had noticed my ALC 101, probably bought long ago, did not give a good result. As I had the ALC 103 (dark alu) and 106 (white alu), I had resolved temporary the problem by mixing them, and I got excellent results with this mix.

I supposed the reason of the bad result with the ALC 101 was that it was too old. 10 days ago, I have been buying an all new one... and the result is the same, a poor quality paint, no comparison with the mix dark/ white alu.

I don't know why I have this problem with this ref. Do you have an idea? In the meantime, of course, I avoid using this new product but I am unhappy, me who always say all the good I think of the Alclad paints...

 

 

 

[Hannes]

I´m the wrong guy for questions regarding this topic . My Mef for instance was painted by sprays from car suppliers and construction markets . But I bought a new Revell gamma compressor on a flea-market for 20 euros ( without pistol ) The man who sold it , a modeler too , was praising alclad as well .

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Other feed back: these last days, I had another deception with a very different product. If you follow this thread, you know how I like the tin material. This soft metal is great, in sheet or in wire, of different thickness, in many situations. I had seen Albion Alloys had in its catalog a 0,25 mm thick tin sheet. I have ordered it, very confident in this excellent brand. But I have been disappointed by this product, their tin sheet is not soft, looking more like an alu sheet than a tin one. I will use it, of course, but I am surprised there can be such différences between tin hardness following the brands.

I have found on Green Stuff World the 0,2 mm tin sheet with the softness I expected...

[Hannes]

For what purpose do you need a soft tin sheet whilst your construction is almost done ? If you possibly intend to show the reinforcement parts for the left bonnet I recommend small L-profiles by Evergreen  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

This tin sheet could be useful to make the bonnets fasteners (the part with the hook, on top of the spring). But I use it too to scribe the panel line between the body and the bonnet (curved shape), a bit erased after removing the rivets and sanding the surface, using the method described in the great FAQ book from my master and friend J.M Villalba:

 

 

 

[Hannes]

A fine and clever method ! Meanwhile I made my first trials on the mini-lathe  and I hope my first shaft will be done soon . Right now I´m very excited because my sister bought a new small Bernese mountain dog . I´m still very sad regarding Yoshi´s death , but a young dog should find a good home as well . This time it´s a girl named Alma and I´ll show a pic on our PM . Both my sister and our new dog did not yet arrive , that´s why I look forward to make a new aquaintance .

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Very glad for you, dear Hannes! I wish you plenty of good moments with Alma, who will help you to overcome the loss of Yoshi.

Finally, I will represent the inside reinforcement you suggested, with small Evergreen L profile you recommend (I must go and buy it), as I have removed temporary my left bonnet (it was necessary to sand correctly the body area just behind). It is indeed a fact that we have rivets outside the bonnets, as you mentioned, that suggest strongly the presence of such a reinforcement:

 

 

P.S: the paintjob is over on my body after the rivets remove. More soon... 

 

 

[Hannes]

You also will be the first one on this planet to show the reinforcements , dear Olivier . And I´m also sure , you will be a shining example for other modelers who want to build a realistic model.

It ´s always been like that : Once a new perspective can be seen there will be people who follow the new path . That´s the reward for a pioneer !

Many thanks for your kind words ! Alma already feels at home .

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Dear Hannes,

Thanks for your kind words too... I don't know if you understand a bit french, but in the caption, I said you had been a kind of guru, a cult leader, for me, on this build. Indeed, you always pushed me to go farer in the sort of western frontier this build has been. 

 

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

This enlargement of the inside bonnet of the Bugatti Hannes showed us above will be my source of inspiration to represent as well as possible my left bonnet wide opened. 

 

I have been buying L profiles from Evergreen this afternoon (I had none of them) and it seems to me that the 2 mm (ref. 292) has the good size:

[Hannes]

I used the same profiles for my Mef where they are mounted on the wooden boards below the bonnets .  Hannes

[Hannes]

I made a new observation regarding the brackets below the rear engine suspension on the right side .

In my opinion there were 2 strong  sheets : The vertical one for the frontal bracket and a second one which was   mounted horizontal on top of the chassis rail .

We can see two bolts for the fixation of this sheet and a part of it is the rear curved  bracket imho .

Many greetings !   Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

After having applied the Alclad white alu on the rest of my wheels fasteners, I have given a new coat of XF 85 to my tyres. Finally, I won't do any weathering on them, as they have just been put in place a few hours before the race...

I feel I have never been so close from the goal. Very excited...

Edited September 10, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
Correction

[Totally Mad Olivier]

A friend of mine asked me recently why the driver was set on the right side and the engine on the the left side. I explained that it was because the engineers wanted to lower the body. She did not understand why they could not lower the body without moving the driver on the right and the engine on the left. I have been unable to give her an explanation to that question, that, so, I submit to you...

 

 

 

[Hannes]

In my opinion a central 2-stroke engine was provided for a racing car according a first ( and not existing anymore ) version  of  drawing 1 in the year 1925  . And there were 2 seats provided according Salamano´s interview . At this time it was not yet known  that for the year 1927 no riding mechanic was prescripted anymore . In the year 1926 drawing 1a was amended to drawing 1 , the development of the 2-stroke engine was halted after that  and the engine 406 was developed .

At this time it was clear that no second seat was required for the year 1927 anymore . Not for lowering purposes but for a better balance ( the weight of the rider mechanic on the left side was falling away ) the engineers decided to shift the engine to the left side about 8 cm .( as close  as possible towards the left bonnet ) The right cam-fairing became useless .

My result : The lowered body was a concept from the beginning by sandwiching the engine . The shifting of the engine has nothing to do with lowering measures . I suppose that the 4-stroke engine 406 was longer but lower regarding it´s height compared to the provided 451 engine so a lowering was possible by altering the chassis and lowering the bonnet´s and radiator case´s height .

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Fastcat]

Offsetting the engine to the driver allows him to sit beside the drive shaft to the rear axle instead of above it and therefore astride it. Have a look at the drawings and you will see this. Many cars mount the engine at an angle to achieve the same effect.

It also helps to balance the car. The fact that it was designed as a 2 seater helped but even in that form it would enable the driver to sit lower.

 

Dave

[Hannes]

I could tell the whole story in a different way : In the year 1925 the development of the 805 racing car reached it´s limits . There were strong competitors coming up . The remaining top engineers for racing activities were under pressure because Agnelli already stopped the racing program in 1924 . Only mighty director Guido Fornaca still supported them .

That´s why a new , revolutionary concept was required to show the world that Fiat still belongs to the first class of racing car developers .The racing enthusiasts also hoped Agnelli could get soothed by a successful development . A new , futuristic concept was required . This concept was a compressor -driven 2-stroke 8-cylinder  engine which was not mounted on 2 suppoprts anymore but was sandwiched between the chassis rails .Because the development of this new kind of engine was a risk , a progressive 12-cylinder 4-stroke engine was developed simultaneous .

In late  1925 it was known that only  1500 cmc engines were allowed for 1927 in combination with a compressor . It was not yet clear if a driver mechanic had to be aboard or not .

The whole program was camouflaged for several reasons . The first drawings were made and they must have been similar to drawing 1 with an central engine and two seats left and right of the propulsion drive . In the year 1926 it became clear that no second seat was required anymore , that´s why the original plans were altered into a single-seater version . That´s our drawing 1 imho . According this drawing already some parts of the car were made ,  like the bodywork .

The engineers had to discover that the 2-stroke engine caused too much problems and too much time would have been necessary for developing an successful engine .

That´s why this program was halted and the more conventional 4-stroke engine was developed further instead . 

It´s possible that old Agnelli was already frustrated  because money and technical intelligence was wasted for an engine wich did not work as promised .

The engineers faced a new problem : The 4-stroke engine was longer and additional oil-tanks ( possibly one oil-tank and one water-tank ) were required for preventing an overheating. The problems regarding the oil-tanks could get solved easily because no co-driver and seat needed to be aboard anymore . The 12-cylinder engine most likely was some cm smaller regarding it´s width , thats why it was shifted to the left for balance reasons .Like fastcat said  this measure also enabled a deeper position of the driver´s seat .

A new or altered chassis was required too and the front axle needed to get bended to create room for the compressor . All this was costing money and time .

Instead of creating a GP car for a long run over 500 km a highly fragile car was developed with a lot of unsolved problems like the jumping front wheel.

In my opinion Agnelli was not amused even if the car won the 50 km competition .Delage won the GP of Europe over 500 km and if the winner would have been the Fiat 1500 cmc 12 cilindri we probably still could admire the car in a museum .

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

This afternoon, I made some necessary little corrections on several points. Indeed, despite my masking, the red airbrushed had affected some close areas, such as the ignition wiring, the bonnets supports etc. I used the great acrylic Vallejo paints for that job. Me who considered them not so good for metal, I must say I was wrong. I have used a mix of Silver 997 and Steel 864 for the metallic part of the supports, and the result is good.

I have begun to close the spaces between the unpainted tubes and the sheet of my hinge. Indeed, they must be completely closed (in continuation). I use Slow dry mig cyano applied with my  homemade applicator to fill these spaces. I have to complete this job, there are still some little spaces. After that, I will give a coat of Vallejo 878 (I ever did it, as you can see) to give the feeling the sheet and these unpainted elements are in continuation.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Today, I have received the 806 kit Roy very kindly sent to me to a really friendly price.

So, as soon as my build will be over (in a few days), I will build OOB this kit, before thinking about representing a mechanic and tools for my little "staging". 

I will build the kit with care but without any scratch or modif at all, except the one absolutely necessary (for example, I will have to cut the floor for my crankshaft to take place).

I look forward to see the result. This will enhance immensely the huge work I had to do (with you!) to get a convincing model. It is the first time I do such a thing.

When I have opened the Roy's box, I felt a very funny sensation. It is a so long time I had opened my own... It was more than 1 year ago. I am unable to say how many time I spent on my build but I would say at least 600 hours, without considering the time spent on the thread, on the photos etc. (I spent probably still more time on that, including the visit to the Rev's, the Centro Storico...).

Here are the last steps for my own build:

- making still little corrections, especially on the digits and maybe also on the fairing (!)

- scratchbuild the bonnets fasteners with hooks and springs. On the left side, as the bonnet is opened, the fasteners will be fixed on the little eyebolts, as Hannes did for his Mef.

- representing the bolts and very thin wires as we could see on the Bugatti... and the 806! (see my post of the 23/8 p. 165)

- redo the little bar of my driver's goggles, that has vanished.

 

 

Olivier

 

 

 

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , instead of builing the car oob with a not very satisfying result you could try to reconstruct the original plan according drawing 1 with an 8-cylinder 2--stroke engine . It´s not easy to reconstruct the engine but we have the drawing of the in-line version . The gearbox and other components could be the same but with an central arrangement . A two-seater could get realized as well  .. Drawing 1 is the pattern and for the engine  some altered kit´s  parts and small scratchbuilds  could be sufficient . 

This would be an very ambitious project of course and a lot of dedective´s work would be necessary  but I think it could get realized .

The unpainted version or the successor could be interesting projects as well .

Of course I´m willing to help if you want to realize one of these pretentious projects .

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Roy vd M.]

@Olivier de St Raph I wish you the best of luck with this 'easy' project (easy for sure if compared to what you have done now) and I look forward to seeing the difference between the out of box-model versus the quasi-scratchbuilt version.

 

It will provide a great comparison and will visualize just how different Italeri kit and 99% of the real car truly were.