Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[CrazyCrank]

Exactly what I think, in fact, Harvey

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , dear Thierry thanks for the informations and advices !  I´ll report my experiences as a newbie . First of all I will follow Thierry´s advice and  fix it to a solid ground plate .

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

1 hour ago, harveyb258 said:

These HR pics are of the prototype/test car, so maybe the mechanics only put in just enough rivets to keep it in place!

Dear Thierry and Harvey,

your explanation about the black holes is very convincing, especially Harvey's one I just quoted.

So, this would mean practically I should put small rivets instead of holes for my car, as I represent it the day of the 2 races, just a few hours before the first one...

As Harvey intends to represent the car at the prototype shooting time, he could decide to put only some of them, like the mechanics probably did...

I will use the smallest size possible (0,5 mm) with the Punch and die RP Toolz, using 0,1 mm thick tin sheet, to get very small and flat rivets.

More soon...

Thank you to both of you!

Olivier

 

[Hannes]

In my editeted reply above I  thought about hollow rivets or punched-in  holes and the rest of the material bended on the backside . Meanwhile I share Harvey´s opinion . But why were these holes not filled with rivets ? There´s a simple expanation imho . It´s for esthetical reasons . Because the two connected sheets are not completely parallel  too many ugly depressions would be the result as we can see on the single rivet between the holes . That´s why rivets only were applied where necessary for static reasons or on spots where the two sheets were almost parallel imho. I guess these rivets were made out of aluminium and flattened by high pressure .

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I wonder if the rivets along the limit body/ bonnet go on up to the frame.

I don't see them clearly on the enlargement below, while we can see one a bit more backward at the limit body/ frame. I suppose the rivets along where in relation with the bonnets mounting supports. If so, on left side as on right side, these rivets should stop with bonnets and not go further.

Now the question remains: should we represent these rivets on the car that was running on the 4/9/1927?

I decided to represent them, as small and flat as possible and so, just slightly visible, while I think Hannes - if he did not change his mind - won't, considering they have been completely flattened, what is very possible. Indeed, we can't see such rivet on photos 7, 21, and on the movie (photos 16 to 18) while we can see the area concerned quite closely. 

Meanwhile, on the photo 9 (HR), we can see little points on the edge of the fairing, suggesting they were not completely flattened.

 

 

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Considering Harvey's assumption is very probable, I have added rivets where there were up to now black holes (this build will turn us mad, I assure you ). Despite the very small size of my rivets (0,5 mm) and their very low thickness (0,1 mm tin sheet), I reduce them by sanding, as we can't see them on most of the photos taken the day of the race. Could we see them better if we had a VHR quality like we have now on photos 2 and 3? it is a fact that, before having these VHR versions, we could not see them, especially along the limit body/ bonnets...

 

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I couldn't wait one more minute (I am so impulsive) and, after my rivets step, I glued in place my left bonnet... despite I still have 3 or 4 steps to do, that should have been done before this one logically...

 

 

[Hannes]

I won´t change my mind regarding the absence of the rivets even on the racing day . Why should the engineers risk a deformed  fairing with a lot of small depressions  if the frame of the grille was chromed just for show effects ? And old Agnelli would have been even less amused if he had seen a Frankenstein car .

The car as we can see it as unpainted version has been already driven on rough roads so there´s no technical need to add more rivets for a track with asphalt  imho .

But : I will possibly represent small flattened rivets for the fairing  like Olivier does . The alternative would be to show no rivets at all . There were rivets in  the region of the seat as well ! ( photo 7 ) . I said from the beginning that I want to represent a slightly idealized car . This also means that there will be louvres instead of slits on the left side.

My model should look like  how the engineers and designers most likely wanted  the real car to look like .

Many greetings !  Hannes

 

[Hannes]

As a result of my observations I come to following conclusions : The designers of the car wanted to avoid visible rivets . That´s why they were flattened and hidden .

Any attempt by a lot of modelers to show rivets as a kind of decoration  is a wrong interpretation of the original design imho . Of course there are spots where some rivets can be seen  like on the rear of the car . But there were possibly technical reasons  why they could not get hidden like other rivets .

The designers wanted to build a modern , futuristic car . Old-fashioned rows of rivets don´t fit in this concept . I can see many models in the internet where a lot of  fantasy rivets were added .

What a wrong interpretation of the car´s  concept !

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I don't regret my decision to put the bonnets on, with the left one wide opened. I thank all the ones from you who encouraged me to take this decision.

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , even if your brass hinge-band looks very nice  I would give it an iron look because I doubt it was made out of heavy brass .And one hinge  ( the circular part )should be red , the next one only red at it´s downside and so on .

Many greetings !  Hannes 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

4 hours ago, Hannes said:

even if your brass hinge-band looks very nice  I would give it an iron look because I doubt it was made out of heavy brass

Dear Hannes,

indeed, my hinge was too clean, it needed to be weathered and darkened a bit. It is done now, with acrylic XF1 Tamiya thinned a lot with 96° alcohol airbrushed gently on the hinge. Photo soon...

4 hours ago, Hannes said:

one hinge  ( the circular part )should be red , the next one only red at it´s downside and so on

this is less clear for me, I admit.

 

Except that, and probably like you, I must say I am not totally convinced by my rivets at the limit body/ bonnets. I can't see anything on any of our photos, except of course photo 2 VHR, that was taken days before the race. Maybe I will remove them...

[Roy vd M.]

What Hannes says is that in the row of hinges that connects your left bonnet to the rest of the car, half of the hinge cylinders is upside-down. Every other hinge cylinder should be coloured red. 

 

So:

 

Seen from the radiator to the cockpit, the first hinge should be left unpainted. The second hinge should be painted red. The third hinge should be left unpainted. The fourth red. Et cetera. 

 

Imagine shutting down the engine cover. The way the hinges are now, all would stand out in their unpainted state. 

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , in my opinion the hinges were made out of strong iron sheets and there was a steel rod inside . That´s why I suggested to paint the hinges with an iron metallic color .. The part of the hinges which should painted red is the part which is painted red if both bonnets are closed . One tube belongs to the right bonnet and should be painted red . The next tube belongs to the keft bonnet and should be unpainted or painted only on it´s downside because this bonnet is open and the red paint " vanishes " due the rotation .

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Dear Hannes and Roy,

I don't understand. How can you know there was this alternating painted/unpainted on the hinge row? And, Hannes, how can you know the hinge was made of iron and not brass?

Delage: brass hinge unpainted: 

 

Miller: brass hinge unpainted:

 

 

Bugatti: same thing:

 

Ok, on the Mef, we have this alternating red/ unpainted, but why should we consider it was the same on the 806, so different??

 

 

 

[Hannes]

If the hinge-row would be made out of unpainted brass there would be a different contrast  with the rest of the bonnets imho (photos 7 and 16 for instance .) Dark red and bright yellow brass color differ even on black and white photos . . The predecessors hinges also seem to be painted in most of the cases . A mechanic with a brush full of color  in his hand won´t leave the hinges unpainted .
 .

Regarding the material : Brass hinges usually  don´t seem to  be painted .  Bugatti brass hinges are  are unpainted  in most cases  but all  versions with iron hinges seem to be painted as far I can see in my library . There´s one example in my  Bugatti book  with  painted brass hinges and the result is : The  color chips off .

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

It is true that we don't have any contrast on photo 7 between the body and the hinge, I had not taken that in consideration (had it been mentioned in the thread somewhere?). I understand now: the mechanic would have painted red the outside of the hinge (not the inside, of course) so, bonnet wide opened, we would see this alternation of painted and unpainted elements of hinge. I have just done the paint job (photo soon).

I am less convinced about the iron and I will keep the  brass aspect for the unpainted part, also for esthetic reasons (I used brass sheet that looks nice once darkened a bit and it would be a pity, imho, in the lack of certainty, to paint it iron).

Thanks anyway.

 

 

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

20 hours ago, Hannes said:

As a result of my observations I come to following conclusions : The designers of the car wanted to avoid visible rivets . That´s why they were flattened and hidden .

Any attempt by a lot of modelers to show rivets as a kind of decoration  is a wrong interpretation of the original design imho . Of course there are spots where some rivets can be seen  like on the rear of the car . But there were possibly technical reasons  why they could not get hidden like other rivets .

On this point too, I rejoin you, Hannes. The decision to represent the rivets because we see them on photo 2 was imho not good. I have decided to remove them nearly completely, even on the fairing. Definitely, you will have influenced (positively) my décisions on my build. For that, I thank you again. 

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , another issue : It´s about strenghtening profiles on the inside of the bonnets . Now your left bonnet is open and you have the opportunity to show it´s reinforcement system .

We don´t have any photos of the inside of the bonnets , that´s why we have to play detectives .

What do we know ?  There´s a rivet row between the triangular louvres row and the cam fairing . That´s the place where an  I or L - profile should be situated .On both endings -before the supports there were most likely alu profiles too . I´ll show an example of a Bugatti later on  . One thing is for sure : The bonnets as great alu sheets alone won´t be stable enough to fulfill their duties !

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Hannes]

 

 

 

 

[Hannes]

I want to show 3 examples of a Bugatti hinge construction . The first photo shows a painted brass hinge after a wrong " restaurative " paintwork  . The color chips off and Ettore would have been very angry !

The second photo shows the contrast between a brass hinge row and painted bonnets . Even if it´s a blue and not a red color there´s always a sharp contrast and that´s not what we can see on our photos .

The third photo shows an iron hinge construction . That´s how I imagine our car´s construction . The reinforcement alu profiles were L-shaped  and there could have been a similar construction inside our bonnets .

What´s interesting too is how you could remove both Bugatti bonnets . There´s an U-shaped take-up on the radiator case´s support .Through this take-up there goes a screw which fixes the hinges rod .

Of course it takes more time  to turn this screw out and in again   compared to our construction with the hook and the spring !

Many greetings !   Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Hannes, the last photo showing reinforcements is very interesting, pity that you did not post it before... That said, on this other Bugatti (I posted this photo above), we don't see the transversal reinforcements, only 1 rear and 1 front (I only made the front one on my 806). Now that my left bonnet is glued, it would be very delicate to add them, even if I glued correctly my bonnet, it probably won't resist. That's why I will probably not represent such renforcements. There will always be something to correct, always a detail that could be so, or so... 

Like a painter who decides to put a final point to his picture, I want my build to be over as soon as possible now.

I will leave you the care to represent all these details better than me, aware that my work is not perfect and full of compromises.

All the best

Olivier

 

 

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , I already showed the last photo some months ago . But thanks to photobucket it vanished on our thread .The Bugatti bonnets you showed above seem to be not made out of aluminium or are shorter compared with our bonnets  .The Delage has it´s own stabilzing system  because there are profiled sheets and only I- shaped additional profiles were necessary for strenghtening this construction . Our bonnets don´t show a profiled structure , that´s why I suppose that there were L-shaped profiles similar my photo shown above 

Another question : What would you do if a collector wants to buy your model , let´s say for 10000 euros ? Would you sell it and build a new one ?

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Dear Hannes,

1) the engine compartment above is not the Delage one but a Bugatti one. I just say that because your answer mentioned the Delage...

2) 10000 euros is probably the amount from which I would begin to hesitate. But happily I had no proposal up to now, and I am not sure I will have such one. And you?

 

 

 

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , I edited my last post so please read again .  About the money : It´s hard to estimate the value of a model . There are tin toy cars which are very valuable even if they were made in a japanese factory . About 20000 euros for a rare Chrysler from the early 60´s for instance . A Bugatti made by Michele Conti  in the 50´s was sold for 23000 dollars . That´s why I estimate the value of your model between 10000 and 20000 euros if some rich collectors are interested  in your unique model . A normal standard-built Protar 806 was sold for about 2000 euros in an auction .

I don´t think I would sell my model once it is finished . But it depends on the circumstances . If I really would need the money or if it´s for a public  museum like the Centro Storico I would possibly change my mind .

Many greetings !  Hannes