Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Totally Mad Olivier]

11 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

i am not convinced of the bandages being ever placed under the hood at all.

I think we will never have any certainty on that point. If we see contemporary race cars of our 806, none of them - that I know - have a wrapping on all the exhaust lenght (I don't speak of the pipes under the hood). If we didn't see it on the photo 9 (in other words if we didn't have the photo 9), we would say that it is very improbable that the wrapping was applied on the whole exhaust. 

I tried to look on the net, on "wrapping exhaust pipes under the hood", I found many examples of wrapping under the hood, on more recent fast cars, supposed through others to improve performance and reduce heat under the hood.

It doesn't prove anything, of course, but if we consider the problems met by Fiat with this engine, caused through others by heat, and if you consider that it was impossible to have a real firewall like on the Delage, the Bugatti etc., because of the pedals situation in the engine compartment, it is possible that the engineers decided, in order to decrease temperature in the engine compartment, to wrapp completely the exhausts, including the pipes (remember the drivers had nearly burns to their feet during the trials in august).

9 hours ago, NickD said:

I think I saw a pre-war car (modern restoration) with wrapping under the hood. I think it was in the magazine Octane this month

Nick, it would be interesting if we could see this photo, of course.

That said, I don't pretend to be sure, I just say that in the lack of certainty, I will leave my wrapped pipes, that, more, I like esthetically...

All the best

Edited July 25, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

A few examples of what wrapped pipes under a hood found on the net. Of course, these are modern cars, that is why it would be interesting to see if such option had been used on vintage ones. CC, don't you have any photo in your library?

Edited July 25, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

9 hours ago, Hannes said:

It can be seen on two videos of the Fiat  S 76

I remember very well that video and had a look again, the color is very nice, a bit lighter and more "pink" than my "arterial blood red". I look forward to see the 806 with that color.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I made some little improvements: my wrapping was too clean, I used a mix of XF1 and XF10 acrylic Tamiya, thinned a lot with 96° alcohol, airbrushed irregularly, insisting on the connection between rear and front part of the exhaust. And I added hose clamps, made with alu mat bare metal foil, at the bottom of my wrapped pipes. For this photo, I didn't use any flash for a better perception of the colors and of the weathering.

 

 

 

My next step should be the window screen, then the tensionners and brake lever, then the radiator cap and the crankshaft ring to replace and many little details, such the repair of the wound on the seat etc., then the bonnets (that, as I said above, will be parts of the setting and not placed on the car). After, I will work on the floor, background, mechanic(s) and tools... 

 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

Why this photo of the box-art?

because it was the first photo I made of my build, the 26/07/2016. Tomorrow, it will be a kind of birthday... 

And, in the same time, we are now on the p.150 of this thread Roy initiated...

Edited July 25, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

After some days of deliberations I elongated my gearbox in  horizontal direction yesterday ( 4 mm ) by   using  two kit´s boxes . I´m content with the result and today  I will elongate it vertically 2 mm .

I also removed the two pins for the booster wheel  and the " hill " on the top of the gearbox .

The booster wheel will get altered as well because it looks very ugly on it´s backside ( flat with a giant mounting pin ) and will get shifted to it ´s correct place .

Sculpturing work with plastic is always a delicate matter  especially if there are small and complicated shapes . My recommendation for these kind of works is to use sharp cutting blades with different sizes and forms They are suited for carving and scraping  .You can buy these kind of tools in every construction market . For very fine works I  hold only a suited blade between my fingers to achieve a better control .

After  these time-consuming works are done , I will show some pics .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 25, 2017 by Hannes

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , a fine and convincing wheatering . Regarding the bonnets : Why don´t you shorten parts 84 c and 30 E in their vertical directions ?  Maybe you could close the right bonnet at least by this measure and the left bonnet stays open for the mechanic ?

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 25, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

5 hours ago, Hannes said:

Why don´t you shorten parts 84 c and 30 E in their vertical directions ?

Dear Hannes,

I have ever decreased a lot 30E vertical arms, they had to be as they were much too long (see above and compare the kit's arms with Drawing 2), and a bit 84C, but it remains impossible to close normally the bonnets. Of course, if I wanted absolutely to put the bonnets (or at least one as you suggest), I could, cheating here and there, but , better than cheating, I prefer to leave my engine compartment completely visible. You don't see the engine as well at all, just opening a bonnet vs leaving them out.

My scene will represent the car, the driver and 1 or maybe 2 mechanics a few hours before the race. It is early in the morning, Bordino has just arrived, mechanics, who have been working a lot on the car these last days to solve the many problems the end of august trials showed, and a photographer suggests Bordino to take place in the car for a photo. The car is in its stand, not yet on the departure line. It is not impossible in such conditions that the whole hood is not yet in place.

When I visited the Rev's institute, the Delage was in restoration (for the Paris Retromobile to come, I think) and the bonnets were like that, a few meters from the car. It was great for me, I could so look at every detail of the engine. It was the same with the Bugatti exposed in the museum. You said that every build would be different, reflecting in the same time the style, the personality and the technical particularities. Probably , because you work at a bigger scale (so less problems to close the bonnets on the engine) and because it is your choice, your build will have its bonnets on, and probably no driver, no mechanics around...

The color too and other details will be a bit different. That's good!

As you said yourself, "vive la différence !"

All the best

Olivier

 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , of course I respect your way to represent the car . And I´m sure it will become an overwhelming diorama ! Of course we are different human beeings and this will get reflected by our different styles of creating models . Our scales are not too different ( yours 1  :  11,3 and mine 1  : 10, 9 ) that´s why I was deliberating what I would do to get the bonnets over the engine .

I suppose I would do a combination . Lowering the crossed struts under the engine and lowering the engine as well  and if this is not sufficient more lowering of the parts 84 c and 30 E .

But that´s only my personal point of view .

I have to pay a price too for my bigger scale .Altering the gearbox was not too difficult but I will have to do similar with my engine and that´s a challenge .

But I knew this problem before I decided to work in this scale . I´m still convinced that there are more advantages than disadvantages .We will see...

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

10 hours ago, Hannes said:

I´m sure it will become an overwhelming diorama !

Thank you for your your kind and encouraging words, about the weathering and the diorama;: In fact, it will not be really a diorama, because my car will be set on a motorized tray, that will allow to see the car under all angles. The model will be placed on a round tray of about 35- 40 cm max., and it is on this little "scene" that will take place the car, the mechanic(s) and the tools; And I imagine a large photo of the stand Fiat as background. All that at the best place (upper shelf) of my new round 1,80 m showcase. A friend of mine will light the scene (and the same for the other models) with a vertical rack of mini LED. I will show all that later...

I just had an idea (not sure it is a good one but...). The idea is as follows : I would use as background photos the one of the Delage I took at the Rev's workroom. It would be a wink to Roy, who created the thread 806. The question is to know if there are not anachronic details around the Delage...

Edited July 26, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

The Austrian modeler Kurtl always builds great surroundings for his big cars . Did you already see some of them ? As for his Mef and his 806 too ? The cars are  built well with some minor  alterings but his surroundings are first class !  Hannes

Edited July 25, 2017 by Hannes

[CrazyCrank]

15 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

A few examples of what wrapped pipes under a hood found on the net. Of course, these are modern cars, that is why it would be interesting to see if such option had been used on vintage ones. CC, don't you have any photo in your library

 

Sorry Olivier, i've reviewed all my library and explored the Internet with different and numerous keywords, and havn't found any picture of exhaust wrapping on vintage race cars 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

9 hours ago, Hannes said:

The Austrian modeler Kurtl always builds great surroundings for his big cars . Did you already see some of them ? As for his Mef and his 806 too ? The cars are  built well with some minor  alterings but his surroundings are first class !  Hannes

26/7/2017:

Of course Hannes I remember amazingly beautiful Kurtl's surroundings. When I made my first researchs on the net about the 806, I fell on different threads, and I fell in love with Kurtl diorama.  

 

 

I think it won't be possible to use my photos of the Delage at the Rev's, they are too focused on the car, I would have needed a panoramic view for my background.

I would be interested by any photo showing a race car workroom, that could do the job, even black and white...

Edited July 26, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

A small birthday- party , dear Olivier ! But we are in a good mood !

 Yesterday I wanted to mount part 79 c  with it´s gear change lever´s support to my new gearbox . Surprise , surprise  : The connection pin  for the rear wheel drive is  too high  and the support as well .Not a single part of the kit seems to be correct .!  I will alter this part of course .

I think we could call ourselves Moa´s ( masters of alterings ) Strange birds , but apparently not yet died out !   So what- I´ll stay optimistic and you are optimistic by your nature  !

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 26, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Sorry, Hannes, I did not use your tuto for my windscreen. I chose to use the kit's part 55E as you suggest but:

- 55E is much too thick (1,5 mm) and I had to (gently, it is getting more and more fragile as you sand it) decrease its thickness to 1 mm max., less if possible (I got 0,9 mm).

- the vertical arms are much too short, they need to be elongated of nearly 2,8 mm. Luckily, I had 2 ex. of the E cluster, so I could use the other 55E part to increase the height of the one I used.

On the other hand, the width is OK and the horizontal base too (good new!)

From the parts 51E, I just kept the nuts, decreasing their size and rounding them.

The rods of 51E are thrown: much too thick and they are vertical instead of horizontal, making a 90° angle with the windscreen frame. I replaced them by syringe tips of flowable composite (dental product), cut at the good lenght. The advantage of these tips is the presence at their base of a little cone that really looks like the fixation we can see on a photo we could not insert in the thread because of copyright considerations.

Pity, we don't have a good document for the left side, and I am not sure the fixing is the same. A construction like Hannes suggested, using eyebolts, is quite probable. But, in the lack of certainty, I will do the same as on right side.

I think - without being sure - that the windscreen was painted red, except the nuts, rods, hinges. Indeed, on the BW photo, it appears same "color" than the fairing. 

Of course, I am waiting now for your comments... 

 

 

P.S: Hannes, your suggestion to use a leather repair product was very good, I got it today and I repaired my wound like that. Thanks!

Edited July 26, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
addition

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , maybe my tuto was not correct  and there was a more simple construction like you showed us  . If you want to construct it this way I highly recommend to use Knupfer eyebolts instead because the parts left and right of the screen look too oversized and too ball-shaped for my eyes . Small eye bolts would look much better imho ! Photo 17 in combination with photo 9  shows us the right side of this construction , photo 4  was the reason for me to construct it with a distance part . Maybe there were different solutions for each side ?

My result : The investment of a few  euros for some eyebolts  will make you more happy in the future !

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 26, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Dear Hannes, what parts are oversized for you? the rods? the nuts coming from 51E? what eye bolt size ref. on Knupfer would you recommend?  

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , ad -139 would look good for me , but the distance - keeping part is very close to the eye . If you could remove this flange these eyebolts would be very suited for your construction .. Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Ok Hannes, thank you, I have just ordered this ref. and other ones you recommended on p. 48 on Knupfer. 

I have changed my mind about the windscreen frame being red. First I have been looking on many cars of the Rev's and they are very generally metal. On the Mef too, it is metal.  And now that I look at the other photos (4, 7, 9 etc.), it is obvious that it was not red. 

I have (temporary at least) lost my kit's transparent screen. Anyway, I suppose it was not height enough, as the vertical arms.

I was thinking using 0,5 mm thick transparent plastic card. It means 6 mm thick glass, what seems to me probable for such a screen. What do you think?   

Edited July 26, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

In the Protar kit the screen had the correct size , the Italeri version is too small . As it seems the frame had the same shape at it´s backside ( U-profiles ) and the glass was inserted from above and fixed with window putty perhaps .  Hannes

Edited July 26, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Waiting for the parts from Knupfer, I couldn't wait more and I assembled (right side for now) my cables, tensionner and brake lever. I am very glad of the result, these cables look great (thanks Robin!), and so for the stars with little balls at the bottom.

It is the best moment of the build, I am very excited, but I must take a lot of care, my model becomes more and more fragile and to handle with a lot of care!! 

I was inspired by the very good tuto of Hannes on p. 149, and so, I replaced the little buckle suggested by the kit (step 1) by a mounting bracket made of 0,6 mm tin foil, with a 0,8 mm hole for the cable (0,38 mm, I recall).

As Hannes noticed with right, this bracket may be seen on photo 9, and it allows to keep the cable "far" from the frame.

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , hold your breath when approaching your model !  And never give it to your patients children for playing even if they are begging and lamenting !

This bracket is an additional detail that makes your model very special. It´s looking very very good !

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 26, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

25 minutes ago, Hannes said:

And never give it to your patients children for playing even if they are begging and lamenting !

 Of this you can be sure!!

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Tensioner and cables are now in place on the left side too:

 

 

Comparison wth our photo 3:

 

 

Comparison with the profile view (photo 28):

 

 

I used these comparisons to improve some details: the radiator cap was slightly decreased in height, I weathered a bit the middle of the wheels hubs and I could elongate a bit the vertical steering arm so that it goes lower. The horizontal arm made a closed angle, I modified the crescent front arm so that it is now more opened, and better situated.

Now, I am gonna work on the bonnets, waiting for the parts from Knupfer, that will allow me to end the windscreen... 

Then my build itself will be over, and I will work on tools, mechanics, ground and background...

P.S: My steering wheel should be situated a bit higher, I will see if I can make the correction (not sure).

 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

You model looks great !  As you know I´m convinced that the parts with the louvres under the manifolds were not removed for the race .  Maybe you  should think this topic over again  because not much interesting can be seen in this region and it would look better if these parts would be at their places imho . But that´s only my personal opinion . Regarding the steering wheel : I would not change anything at all , it´s situation looks very good for me and photo 29 deceives the eye  a bit  as I already was discussing with Nick .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 27, 2017 by Hannes