Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Hannes]

Dear Nick , in my opinion you can see this circular mounting part on photo 28 as well ! It´s very very hard to see but it exists imho . Maybe this observation could help regarding your virtual reconstruction !  We also can see the spring or rubber band for the bonnet´s fasteners and the accelerator pedal itself on this photo !  . This " ring " seems to be situated lower than the brake rod through the crankshaft case´s rear part .If the accelerator pedal was mounted on the same spot as the brake rod for the successor it possibly should get mounted to the support for this rod and not be connected with the rotating rod itself

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 14, 2017 by Hannes

[Hannes]

[Hannes]

I´m currently about to improve the shape of my fairing and doing adaption works for my new chassis by altering my bodywork .

I wanted to give some hints regarding model sculpture , that ´s why I showed some of my tools .

The files are most important for creating good surfaces . They are covered with small diamonds  and are much better than key files from the construction market for instance .

I did not show any sanding paper because sanding down is the last step and overdoing is bad for the shape of your sculptured part .The diamond files need to get cleaned in acetone from time to time .

The secret to get a smooth and well-shaped surface is a good technique to file and sand down a surface which is covered by a very thin layer of filler .

For greater surfaces I recommend a fine polyester filler for car repairs , smaller surfaces can be done with Revell Plasto for instance .

First of all we need a good foundation . The fairing for instance needs to get altered by cutting parts away and adding plastic profiles to the required spots . 

Now it´s time to file down a bit more than the final surface´s level .Next step is to apply filler in thin layers  . I use thin cardboard strips  from my cigarette boxes for that purpose . ( only one time usage ! ) If  the foundation sticks out it needs to get cut away more than necessary to get filler all over the new part .

The sculptural works need to be done in a criss-cross way . There´s always a main direction which need to get filed more intense than the direction in 90 deggree angle .

It´s important to look at the part from different points of views and to add tiny amounts of more filler if necessary .

If a good shape is achieved , it´s necessary to protect the filler surface by adding liquid primer . I use Duplicolor Haftgrund ( primer) 

Of course there are still flaws and valleys and mountains .They need  to get filed and sanded after the primer is dry .

Now you can add filler and new liquid primer again and repeat till there´s a convincing result . The primer soaked filler can get sanded wet  , the filler itself only should get sanded dry .

It´s important to know that you can add filler on primer and vice versa till the shape is convincing .

Last step is to give the part a coat of primer  and sand down wet with a fine sanding paper .

If there are more questions , please don´t hesitate to ask !

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 15, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

On 11/07/2017 at 11:05, Hannes said:

Dear Olivier , we can see this pedal on photo 1 AA . It seems have to been straight in reality  and Protar bended it  for some reasons

I come-back on the question of pedals. My opinion is that the Protar team,  seeing the lateral view of Drawing 2 (see above), thought that the bended pedal was the accelerator one. But in fact it was the oil clutch one (left pedal) that was bended. That is what the top view suggests imho. In his drawing, Hannes suggested the little pedal with a "ring" was the oil clutch pedal, but I think it is the brake pedal in the middle. In the kit, the left pedal is straight, I think it should be bended as on Drawing 2 lateral view. Of course, maybe I am wrong but it is what I think.

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , the brake pedal is the one which is connected with the brake rod through the engine . On the other side it´s connected with the booster wheel and the cross-rod for the brake levers . I´m not sure where the oil clutch pedal was situated and how it was connected with the clutch .. I believe that the pedal with the ring was not connected with the brake rod  and could be the accelerator pedal .A pedal for the clutch should be situated directly beneath the cutch case between oil pan and gearbox .  But I´m not sure  100 per cent .

Many greetings !   Hannes

Edited July 15, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Dear Hannes,

don't you think the pedals were, at that time, as in the future, left pedal= oil clutch, middle pedal = brake pedal and right pedal= accelerator pedal?

The point of view of experts would be interesting on that question...

[Black Knight]

yes they were; it had been standardised.

The only car which was different was the Ford Model T and then the first of the new Ford Model A [first two years or so] later Model A used the common arrangement of A B C

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks Fred to confirm that. So I would remain on my idea: left= oil clutch (bended), middle= brake (ring), right= accelerator (straight, visible on photo 1AA)... But I wonder what is the arm below this right pedal and especially what is the thin rod I mentioned above. I also wonder about the vertical support behind the steering arm. Does this exist on left side? with what is it connected? what was this part used for?

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier the support behind the steering arm is the main suspension for the engine which had to carry the two thick tubes .( engine drawing 3 ) This was the new sandwich construction There are triangular reinforcement plates mounted on the steel plates , In the center the tubes were connected with this construction .As far as I can see these parts were not painted for the race .. About the first question I don´t have an answer because I don´t know what you mean . Please show a pic !

There also seems to be some confusion regarding the pedals . I named the accelerator pedal the pedal with the ring because we can see it´s circular mounting point under the chassis rail.

There are only 2 normal looking pedals in the kit , that´s why I believed this pump-shaped  knob could be the oil clutch pedal  ( left of the brake pedal in reality of course ! ).Maybe it´s only an oil pump or similar in reality. But it can´t be the brake pedal if it looks like that because the brake pedal was connected with the brake rod .. I guess Protar made some grave mistakes and there should be a normal brake pedal in the center. It s possible too that  this pump was the upper part of the brake  pedal and was connected with the brake rod .This could make sense and a small altering could solve the problem . The fixation on  a mounting pin for the engine is completely wrong imho .

On my scetch you can see my first interpretation .Not correct as I suppose now .But  I never said that there were different positions of the pedals as you believe .Maybe  a wrong interpretation of my posts .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 16, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

On ‎16‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 01:52, Hannes said:

About the first question I don´t have an answer because I don´t know what you mean

What first question, Hannes?

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , the question regarding the thin rod . I really did not find out what you mean .Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

On ‎12‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 07:29, Olivier de St Raph said:

What is the exact role of that support? opening the bonnet probably... Does it play a role of support for the exhaust? And that vertical thin rod, is it a continuation of the above support? No, of course, the photo 1A shows that this thin rod disappear when the window is absent: 

 

Hannes suggests - an he is probably right - that the piece we can see through the window is the accelerator pedal. The location corresponds, but I am confused by the orientation of the pedal, that seems very downwardly directed. I don't know if this sounds clear...

Dear Hannes

the thin rod is what the red arrow shows on the left photo. We can't see it on the right one, what means it is Inside the bonnet. If you look at our Drawing 6, this rod is visible and it seems to be continuated under the bonnets. I will show a pic about that very soon...

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , this rod is the rubber band or spring for the fasteners of the bonnets . Propeller showed us rubber bands for his Talbot .I recommend to use the kit´s springs because rubber gets inflexible after a while .  It´s duty is to keep the bonnets closed and it must be elastic , You pull the fasteners upwards ,  separate them from their suspension bolts with a circular head  and the bonnets can get opened . There are 4 of them , 2 on each side . There are small ugly hooks on the kit´s  chassis to hold the springs in place .

As I said above it would look better if you remove these hooks and replace them by brass eyebolts,

The left of your 2 photos above is incomplete . Please also show the region below the chassis !  That´s important because we can see the situation of the accelerator pedal  as a whole ! The right photo is retouched and not important at all .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 17, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Ok Hannes, thank you, now this is clear for me. I don't think I will use the kit's springs because on photos, they don't look like springs. I will try to find another solution. Uschi Van de Rosten has in his catalog great rigging for antennas, that I used for aircraft but the thickest are 0,03 mm, which is too thin. The diameter of these thin fasteners should be around 1 mm...

[Hannes]

I made a scetch and will post it as soon as  my sister is back home  Please post the left photo again  with the whole surrounding ( region under the chassis ) .Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 17, 2017 by Hannes

[Hannes]

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Very nice and useful drawing, thanks a lot, Hannes!

Pity, as I feared it, one of my front wheel has broken and the second one did the same a few time after... I probably created tensions when I cambered them. Too tired tonight to resolve this problem, I will see that tomorrow. Hope it will be O.K...

All the best

Olivier

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I spent 1h30 this morning to repair my wheels. I had to recement many spokes (about 30 or 40) and then to recement the wheels themselves. But now it is OK. To prevent such accidents, I put under my car a stand of around 10 mm height, that will avoid to much weight on the wheels during the build. My wheels are a bit less cambered after my repair, but more strong. More soon...

Edited July 18, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

After long considerations I decided to alter my engine , gearbox and roots blower . It´s not only because my  bigger scale ( the Protar kit also has a greater scale than 1 . 12 except the engine )there are a lot of Protar inventions which don´t belong to the engine as I can see on our plans .This pump-shaped pedal and the suspension for the steering column and the magnetos are examples for that deception.The gearbox is too short in every scale .

I will only represent what I can see on the drawings and photos  .

It´s a trick of Protar : If parts are designed in a complicated way with cable binders , rivets , bolt´s heads and so on everybody believes this is real and there´s no doubt regarding the reliability of the model construction . Thousands of modelers were falling for that crap . But I´m not in the mood  to get fooled ! I´ll take a knife between my teeth and transform into a surgeon !

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 18, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Bravo Hannes, your will to represent every detail as right as possible deserve respect!

After having repaired my front wheels, and after these last days of short holiday far from my build, I can go on again, slowly because of the few time I have, but surely.

I had to cheat if I wanted my steering arm to fall at the right place, not too close from the pedals. So, I have added a round axle of 5,6 mm diameter, in the continuation of the steering column (don't tell anyone! ). On this 3 mm thick round axle, I have glued a 3 mm brass rod of 15,5 mm lenght, and on this rod, I have glued my scratchbuilt vertical arm, made from 0,5 mm thick alu foil. As Hannes noticed with right, this arm must go up to the top part of the exhaust (see photo 9). The kit's part 28B is much too short (16 mm), my arm, 20,5 mm lenght, is correct imho. I have used a 1,2 mm nut for the top nut (invisible on our photos because of the exhaust). For the low one, the photo 9 shows imho a marguerite shape. I did not find such a shape in my old kits box so I tried to make it from thin plastic rods (0,75 and 0,5 mm):

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

Bravo to you too , dear Olivier ! If we look at drawing 2 ´s top-view we can see the steering arm´s end   a bit outside the rail .. That´s where the manifold needs to be extended enough to be situated in front of this steering arm . I wonder why this arm is very massive on drawing 2 compared with the kit´s small rod . Your steering arm looks very good and is on the right place ! The steering column also has a very good angle .  I will have to cheat too and I hope I can do this on spots where nobody will notice ( like you did ) !

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 18, 2017 by Hannes

[Hannes]

I want to add some deliberations regarding Olivier´s left photo of the accelerator pedal . ( photo 1 AA ) There seems to be the brake pedal in the background and I wonder why there is a horizontal rod .

 .I suppose that the brake pedal was connected with a  pressure spring construction to bring back the pedal into it´s former position after it was released .

The springs inside the brake drums were not sufficient imho to release the whole brake system . Maybe  a look at other racing cars might solve the problem how this construction worked and where it was mounted . Hannes 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Dear Hannes,

after I showed my last pic, I tried to check the steering rod 16B (step 28H). As you can suppose, it was much too long (10 mm), and a bit too thin imho (2,8 mm). So, I used the same brass rod I used for the transversal horizontal rod. On my build, the good lenght is 81 mm and 3 mm thick.

But when checking, I had a big problem: the part 136D (step 23) was interfering a lot. Then I noticed that my vertical steering arm replacing 28B was too vertical and had to be bended more, like we can see on our photo 3.

But this correction was not enough, I had to decrease 136D thickness and to decrease too the lenght of the front steering arm 30B (step 21). Phew! now, it is over now with the steering arms, the result is not perfect but acceptable:

 

 

 

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , that´s a good compromise .The whole appearance of the car is convincing . Some time ago I mentioned the problems regarding interfering  of this rod with the caps on the leaf spring´s suspension if this rod is horizontal .

I said it´s a matter of tenth of a mm and this suspension part needs to be as short as possible if there should be enough room for the rod , especially when turning the front wheels into the left direction .You responded  that you don´t intend to turn the front wheels .This example shows us that this reconstruction is a difficult  task and a lot of parameters need to be considered ..

I have to fight with some problems too especially regarding the size of the engine . I´ll post  some pics later on to highlight  the critical issues .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited July 19, 2017 by Hannes

[Hannes]