Hannes Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Great explanation. I had wondered what the strut was for. That looks plausible. The bit that interests me though is the way the spring feeds through the red support in your drawing. I can't find anything quite like it at the moment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 A lot of adjustment work to integrate (temporary for now, just dry fit assembly) the leaf springs and the steering rod 17B of the 26th step. For now, I worked only on the right side: - I had to cut the leaf spring at the green arrow level, it was too long (I will have to make disappear the joint) - 136D and 32B are a bit too thick imho (Hannes, funny, while I was adding these photos, I saw your excellent drawing just above!) - I had to move a bit my crescent steering lever, to get it at the good height (the leaf spring must go under it, the steering rod 32B must be horizontal) and at the good position also in the sagittal direction. Top view: Frontal view: I will have to improve the joint at the front bottom of my frame (I had cut it, too long of 1 mm) (black thin arrows) That said, casually, having all parameters, symmetry axes, horizontal and vertical lines, nearly OK in the 3 directions of the space, with the many elements composing this area (Robin will not contradict me), is not easy considering the many many modifications brought... That's why, even if there is still a lot of work, I am quite satisfied of that result 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 OK - finally found a bit of background. The type of spring is called a slipper spring. It is still used today in many applications. There are number of different styles of end to the spring including just straight as we discussed above. The old Mk1 Ford Escort had this type of spring on the rear. The video below shows how a modern solution is implemented. Obviously there was much less PTFE around in 1927! The interesting bit starts about a minute in. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 7 hours ago, NickD said: The type of spring is called a slipper spring. It is still used today in many applications. There are number of different styles of end to the spring including just straight as we discussed above. The old Mk1 Ford Escort had this type of spring on the rear. The video below shows how a modern solution is implemented. Obviously there was much less PTFE around in 1927! The interesting bit starts about a minute in. Thanks Nick for that video, that confirms this kind of "slipper spring" exists. As Hannes said, it was probably very new in 1927. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Comparison between Drawing 1 (left) and 2 (right) in the front area, top view: 1- the connecting tube between radiator and cooling system is at the middle on Drawing 2. This is very important, because if I wanted to get that, I had to make many modif (that I will show after...), the engine being frankly left situated. 2- The Hartford s.a are very different from D1 and D2. D2 is much better imho on that point. 3- The crescent steering lever is too very different in the 2 drawings. The kit used D1, on which the crescent is clearly wrong, but the angle of the crescent seems too closed on D2, imho. The truth would be nearer from this version, but a compromise between both, imho. 4- The part 136D, very thick, was imho inspired by D1. D2 is much better on that point. 5- The radiator cap is wrongly situated in D2 (too frontal), much better in D1. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) Considering the top view above, I had to make new modif in order my engine to be set frankly left side, keeping in the same time a good continuity transmission tree/ engine. I had to open still more the window for the crankcase (I still have a little contact between the rod of the part 46E (step 10, part of the servo brake) and the front tank of 18E (step 3). I preferred to cut the rear part of the transmission tree (as I did with the steering column) to help getting this continuity. I will cement it at the last moment. Top view: Driver and body in place, here is where I am. There is of course still a lot to do, but I begin to see the end of the tunnel (very far, though ) Edited June 3, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) Olivier on your earlier post. Using the numbers you used. 1. Can't comment 2. Why are we still using Drawing 1 - it's garbage 3. Drawing 2 looks good to me - I will publish the comparison when I can. The outer profile appears OK but.... I am going to make excuses about why the inner profile might be OK that apply equally to the outer.. I find some difference on the inner profile but the pictures are unclear and the angles are poor. For these reasons, if I needed to make something I would use Drawing 2, probably. It has a complex shape vertically that Drawing 2 can't help with. I will try to post something. 4. Again go with Drawing 2 (did I mention that drawing 1 was junk). 5.See my comment for (4) and.... Two things make it confusing. The filler must connect to the radiator. Which it does on Drawing 2 and which appears to be in the right place. There is quite a distance to the grill (which is not shown in the plan view and is wrong in the sideview). In plan view, it is easy to think the front of the radiator is the front of the car. It isn't. For your model, I would make sure the filler aligns with the radiator. It will be logical and look right with the bonnet open. It will also be some distance behind the grill. Finally something I noticed recently. Look at the photos of the front of the car. The front upright (the bit the steering attaches to and the axle comes out of) appears to be half-in the brake drum housing. Drawing 2 suggests the same. This is different from the kit. From the photos above it looks like the kit parts have a gap. Of course I have not got the kit and don't know if there are more bits to add. Unfortunately the photos are all quite poor in this area. I have struggled to work out whether the front upright is vertical or angled with the wheels. I think it might be vertical (from Drawing 2). Also it does not appear to lean backwards either. Lots of words. Let me know if you need further explanation. Nick Edited June 3, 2017 by NickD Minor Typos. Should have read first. Know how Trump Feels. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 1 hour ago, NickD said: For your model, I would make sure the filler aligns with the radiator. It will be logical and look right with the bonnet open. I agree with you, and I will have to move the tube coming from the radiator, that I had placed on right side, because my cooling tube was arriving on right side too (on drawing 2, they are in continuity). But now that, thanks to the modif I made today, the engine is more left centered, the cooling tube is coming nearly at the middle of the radiator. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 1 hour ago, NickD said: The front upright (the bit the steering attaches to and the axle comes out of) appears to be half-in the brake drum housing. Drawing 2 suggests the same. This is different from the kit. This is not very clear for me. A drawing, or a photo with labels, would be appreciated... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Well...I'm back in the saddle again. I started making a new radiator, because the kit's radiator looks wrong. Mainly the stretched "15" annoyed me. I scatch build a new radiator around the partly demolished kit's radiator. I used all the space I have inside the radiator casing and got rid of the decorative radiator shell (not seen it on photo's anyway). This widens the actual radiator (available space for the "15") with about 6mm. With the blackened brass border the protective mesh is now comparable to the "add on" mesh seen on many Bugatti 35's. The border with the mesh will be attached to the radiator with small brass strips around the tube. I checked the position of the filler cap and the connection to the engine...all is fine! I must now make a new "15" mask to suit my new radiator. More soon, Robin 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 I agree with Olivier regarding point 3 . As I already mentioned the crescent shaped steering lever maybe was one of the reasons for the problems with the front axle and was virtual altered on drawing 2 according Massimino´s calculations imho . A top-view cannot turn a crescent - shaped lever into a different form .We also could not see this lever like on photo 7 if it had the form as on drawing 2 imho . There are other alterings too on drawing 2 like the absorbers on a slanted " base " instead of a horizontal arrangement . Maybe Massimino himself was the draughtsman of drawing 2 ? It differs regarding it´s " style " when comparing with other Fiat plans of racing cars in the 20 ´s. Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Hannes, Drawing 2 is pretty good as far as my analysis goes apart from being to narrow at the upright but that may be down to the quality of the photos. Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) Dear Nick , it´s not about the quality of the photos it´s about the shape of the lever . On drawing 2 it shows into the backward direction and I cannot see this sharp turn on photos 6 , 10 or 21 for instance .Of course I made a cardboard pattern to see how the lever of drawing 2 aligns with our photos.. In my opinion it´s a different lever But I´m not sure 100 per cent .. Maybe a virtual construction could be helpful for solving this problem ! Many greetings ! Hannes Edited June 3, 2017 by Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Dear Robin ,your radiator looks great ! I´m not sure if a honeycomb radiator was used . I don´t believe so because this kind of radiator was already old-fashioned in the 20´s and less effective compared with a modern radiator. I wonder why Bugatti used these honeycomb radiators still in the 30´s ! Maybe an esthetical issue because Ettore considered his cars as sculptures . I´ll post a pic soon so we could see a typical protection mesh of a Bugatti . Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 there's no honeycomb on my radiator 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) Dear Robin I know ! I think your solution is correct but the protection mesh maybe should be situated directly behind the grille´s spokes like we can see on the master model photos .( I ´m aware , the master model is wrong regarding many issues but not all imho ) It´s easier to clean the mesh from outside instead of removing the grille for that purpose in my opinion . Many greetings ! Hannes Edited June 3, 2017 by Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Dear Olivier , despite the shape of this crescent lever ( I hope we will finally find out if Nick constructs a virtual one) this lever should have a polished metal look similar the Bugatti above imho ! Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) Same goes for the lever on the opposite side as we can see on photo 25 . The steering cross-beam and the steering rod also seem to be unpainted metal but I´m not sure if they were polished : Hannes Edited June 3, 2017 by Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) I agree, Hannes, and so for H made of 16 and 28B (steps 28 and 32). We can see that clearly on photos 7 and 9. But what about the steering rod 17B, on step 26? the instructions suggest metal silver (H), the "master model" is flat black, and on photo 8 and 21, it seems to have the same color than the front axle. Notice that, on photo 3 (the car body isn't yet painted), it looks light, looking more like a silver than on a black (the exhaust, black, is much darker). Ondrawing 3, it is silver, and in Drawing 5 (Codognato) it is red!!! Would the front axle be red too?? Finally, I would for now probably choose polished metal, as the other elemnts of the steering system. And you? P.S: meeting of the minds, Hannes, I got your reply while I was writing my post! Edited June 3, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Dear Olivier on photo 21 the front axle seems to be unpainted too. I doubt it was black . Personally I tend to represent the front axle as darker polished metal and the rods a bit brighter . The brightest parts seem to be the steering lever on the engine and the two levers besides the wheels . I guess they were made out of an special alloy and seem to be more shiny compared with the other parts of the steering system . But I´m not completely sure about that.Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) My radiator v2.0... Huge compared to the kit's take on this...and yet it goes in the same casing! About the mesh...I'm not sure it was used either. No matter what it looks good and it makes some sense. I have serious doubts it was placed right behind the grille...this would be visible on some of the photo's.... Keep in mind the mesh is really fine, probably finer than mesh used to protect a radiator. This would be visible on the photo's. Edited June 3, 2017 by Robin Lous 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 And what about the set 32B, 136 and 137D (step 23). I am thinking about red, like the rest of the body... Just now, Robin Lous said: My radiator v2.0... Much better, Robin! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 30 minutes ago, Hannes said: on photo 21 the front axle seems to be unpainted too. I doubt it was black . Personally I tend to represent the front axle as darker polished metal and the rods a bit brighter . You who often used to consider the Codognato drawing as a quite good reference, why not red for 17B and, why not, for the front axle? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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