Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Hannes]

Dear Robin , I cannot prove it of course but I believe this painting was made shortly after the car´s paintwork was finished  because no front 15 numbers on the bonnets can be seen  and the rear 15 numbers look like added  by the artist later on .So no dirt on the fresh painted car imho .And a black color also means more weight than polishing the metal ! For the race itself the car was cleaned again of course .Look at photo 4 B !   Hannes

Edited May 23, 2017 by Hannes

[Robin Lous]

Agree to disagree 

[Hannes]

Most likely these knobs were made out of an alloy (maybe steel  mixed with chromium ) beccause they had  to be stable and light as well .Dirt on these parts would look different imho .

Photo 9 also can be seen in our PM . Maybe this could be helpful .  Hannes

Edited May 23, 2017 by Hannes

[Black Knight]

Ordinary aluminium alloy would be more usual

[Roy vd M.]

34 minutes ago, Hannes said:

I also spoke about polishing . As I said before drawing 5 as a contemporary painting for me is the main reference regarding colors and textures . And there are apparently bright parts as the artist saw it imho on the original car . The frame for the grille also was made a bit heavier imho just for optical reasons !  Hannes

 

I can imagine not everything on Drawing 5 is as the artist saw them. These race posters were meant to impress the public and lure them to the races. On Drawing 5 I see an bright metal aluminium-like exhaust pipe, which does not correspond with the photos; just to name an example. There are also apparent mistakes in Drawing 5, such as the position of the brake linkage versus the brake lever. On the real car, these were positioned the other way around. This could indicate that the artist made a quick sketch of the car when it was on the track and that he detailed it from memory when he was in his office. The same applies with colours... did he have his complete colour palette with him on that day at the races in Monza? Did he mix the colours there (in the rain perhaps)? Or did he wait for that in his designers office? That would make more sense to me. In that case, it is only natural to not have mentally noted every colour tint of every part on the car. Hence the (probably wrong) exhaust pipe colour and the (probably wrong) brake drum colour. I can see no reason to believe Fiat would have really painted those drums red. 

 

Another problem with the drawing is... why does it not feature the number '15' on the bonnets? Is it really the car he saw at the race? Then it would have included the number 15 I am sure. Add to that the question why this poster would have been made after the race. Principally these posters are meant as advertisment before the race? In that case the poster would have been designed and printed, let's say, at least a week before the race. The designer would not have seen the car in its red body colour, as the car was painted red on the day of the race (this seems to be communis opinio in this thread, although I have never been convinced of it). 

 

So to conclude: the way I see it, this poster was made at least a week before the race, as an advertisement for the race to be held. The race colours were probably as the artist was informed by Fiat. Idem the racing number. 

 

20 minutes ago, Hannes said:

So no dirt on the fresh painted car imho .

 

It was a rainy day. Photo 9 clearly shows the amount of dirt the car has gathered during the race. 

[Hannes]

Dear Roy , I also don´t believe that the car was painted only some hours before the race . On photo 9 we can see the damage on the radiator case . Maybe this part was repainted shortly before the race and the mechanics did not have the time to repaint the frontal cross-beam(exchange part imho ) . And it´s possible  that Fiat declared to use the same colors as on  the predecessors .

Of course there are some artistic freedoms and exaggerations too on this drawing 5 . But some details are represented in a very convincing way imho .

It´s up to us to find out what we could use for our model and what not . Personally I believe this brownish blood-red to be the right color because it was used for the predecessors as well as we also can see on other contemporary paintings .Maybe the artist also used photos .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited May 23, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

5 hours ago, Robin Lous said:

And to avoid being chased out of town...I also camber the front wheels.

A different approach...

Dear Robin, it would be a pity to chase you out of town and of this thread!

That said, I think the "vertical rod" 15B is cambered too, and not vertical, as you suggest in your drawing. The photos 12 and 21 show imho that it is parallel to 139D. That's why I chose the 4A bending option... But the most important is to camber the wheels...

Edited May 23, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

One interesting aspect I forgot to mention : No window screen can be seen on drawing 5 ! This means the painting was made in the Fiat box or outside before this screen was mounted or the artist just gave the unpainted pre-race car a virtual coat of paint  There are no bandages around the exhaust pipes too as Roy already mentioned ..  Hannes

Edited May 23, 2017 by Hannes

[NickD]

Olivier

 

Thanks for the comments on Manchester. My children have friends who knew people who were killed so it has got quite close to them. Such a joyless thing to do.

 

Your camber looks good

 

Robin

 

Thanks for adding further to our in depth analysis of the race day environment with the soil study. Laughed out loud.

 

Now just need to find the weather forecast...

 

Nick

[Totally Mad Olivier]

10 hours ago, Robin Lous said:

Seemingly painted black with some wear on the edges and the adjustment knobs.

I used steel pigment powder from Vallejo for this. Much nicer than drybrushing with paint imho.

Very nice and subtle effect indeed, Robin!

[Totally Mad Olivier]

9 hours ago, Hannes said:

On the engine drawings no tubes can be seen , but that  does not mean there were none

Nothing to add, that's exactly the answer I would have done. In fact, you have to decide. As you know, I decided not to add the tubes (we have many debates and made many research about that) but I think pity we will never have any certainty on that point.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

100% OK, the engine becomes too "heavy" with them... When you don't know, choose the most esthetic solution, it's my philosophy

Edited May 23, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

A lot of pro work yesterday and today, just read your comments about the parts 141 and 143 (x2)D parts. I must say it is for me very difficult to have any certainty on that point. On some docs, they seem to be black (photos 1B, drawing 3), on some others, they seem to be bare metal (photos 1A, 1AA, 4B, 9). But on most of them, 141D is black but 143D are metal (photos 2, 3, 7, 28, drawing 7, model 2) and that will be my choice. I really think the "stars" were not black, why should 141 and 143 have the same color? Have another look at all our docs and I think you'll agree with me. That was anyway the solution chosen by the modeler who built the "master model" (I know, it does not mean so much...)

 

Finally, I decided to full scratchbuild my cross rods support of the engine. The reasons?

- the rods were too short for my build

- as I said above, the notches imho did not exist, and a much better attachment solution was suggested on the "master model" (very good on that precise point imho).

I began early this morning, without having time to post. Here is my first step. I still have to make the U attachment and the mounting lugs instead of the notches... 

N.B: I used the 04 nuts provided in the kit. Much too big nearly everywhere (I ordered some on RB motion, thanks again Robin), they are OK here! 

More as soon as possible...

 

 

P.S: I still have not read all new posts, you were very inspired, today, chaps! It is incredible (and good) to see, while we are at p. 124 (!), that this thread  is still very lively! 

Edited May 23, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

8 hours ago, Robin Lous said:

A quick soil study of the region

You have a lot of humour, Robin, besides being a great modeler!

[Totally Mad Olivier]

7 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

I can imagine not everything on Drawing 5 is as the artist saw them. These race posters were meant to impress the public and lure them to the races. On Drawing 5 I see an bright metal aluminium-like exhaust pipe, which does not correspond with the photos

I agree with you, Roy, personally, I would not draw too many conclusions from that drawing.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

2 hours ago, NickD said:

Thanks for the comments on Manchester. My children have friends who knew people who were killed so it has got quite close to them. Such a joyless thing to do.

 

Your camber looks good

Dear Nick,

I am so angry about these barbarians, not human, no heart... Hope we shall overcome of terrorism, this cancer... 

Thanks for your kind comments about my wheels camber.

[Robin Lous]

I grossly underestimated the effect of a disc to camber the wheels....

The estimated 1,5mm is way too much. This is all it needs....4mm of 0,5mm thick.

This makes life much easier and the disc will hardly be visible...just a lick of red on the edge is enough.

Will cut off the axle near it's base and replace it with a brass tube at the right angle.

I'll glue the tube to the inside of the hole in part 139D (the "red disc") and leave it off until I can put on the wheels.

These parts stick out dangerously and I'm afraid to damage them while working on the rest of the car....I know myself, better safe than sorry!

 

More soon,

Robin 

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by Robin Lous

[Hannes]

I did some elongation works at the front of my chassis rails. If you do the same with plastic parts , it´s a matter of some minutes or an hour .

Elongating metal parts is an  much more complicated issue .Because the tips of my rails are very slim ( about 1,5 mm )  it was difficult to find the right solution .

First of all I was filing down the region around  the section on both sides and glued 2 brass plates to both sides and a small brass sheet between.

Next steps were drilling holes for dowels. I used small Knupfer screws as dowels and  shortened and filed them down after screwing them trough this construction .

This way I got a stable connection.I´m happy that these complicated works are done and my cross-beam before the grille will be at the right place later on .

As I mentioned above , the rear parts of the rails will be made scratch  out of brass profiles and that´s what I´m going to do next .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited May 24, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

The different steps of my new scratchbuild cross rods support of the engine:

 

 

 

 

 

[Hannes]

That´s a very convincing solution , dear Olivier ! On drawing 1 we can see some bolts heads on the parts which hold these cross rods. Maybe you want to add some !

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited May 24, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Your point is quite right, indeed, dear Hannes. I did them but you can't see them on these top view photos. You'll see them on next one... We can see them too on photos 1, 2, 3, 9...

Edited May 24, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

That´s right , dear Olivier , but the two bolts for the frontal parts only can be seen on drawing 1 . They are situated at the bottom corners ! And there are two horizontal bolts at the upper line of the rear parts too !   Hannes

Edited May 24, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Here are the bolts I had added, following what my eyes saw on the different photos:

 

... but you are right, Hannes, the Drawing 1 brings here a bit more informations. I admit I did not think to have a look at this doc, that, to be honest, was even not present in my "library". Bravo for your good eyes!

 

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , there´s another interesting bolt " aspect "If we look at drawing 2 there is a row of bolts where the rear engine suspension is situated on the chassis rail .3 bolts can be seen here , on the right side of our car   there are 4 bolt heads  over a sheet and also  a hole .

 Beyond the (drawing 2 )  three  bolts there are still two other bolts ..On the photos of our car´s right side only one bolt can be seen on photo 2  . Maybe there is a second one hidden by the steering rod !

On the steering rod´s end there´s also a single " hanging " bolt  and on photo 1 we cannot see the single bolt because it´s hidden under the steering rod´s bolt ! That´s really crazy !

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

As I was making a new dry fit assembly engine in place (on my new supports), I saw the engine was still too height, the bonnets touching the up cooling pipes. I have been looking on Drawing 2, and I have noticed that the vertical pipes, that I had ever increased, were still too long.  

 

 

The vertical tubes, initially nearly 7 mm, are now not more than 4,5 mm, and they look like on Drawing 2. It is nearly good, but the engine is still a bit too height/ radiator case:

 

 

That's why I will remove a bit of the inferior part of the engine by sanding and it should be really good (black marker):

 

 

Notice the crankcase frankly protruding under the underbody...

 

P.S: Hannes, too tired now, I will check what you said in your last post tomorrow...

Edited May 24, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph