Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Hannes]

Dear Sam that´s true ! And I like the asian culture and the women too . Now I´m almost done with the alterings of my 806 bodywork and I will show some pics on Sunday or Monday :.

The proportions of this car are really fascinating and that´s the reason why I thought about these topics . And Nick´s wire.frames are a great help for building a realistic model !

But this does not mean  a 3 D printer alone  could create a convincing model of the 806. This cute little racer was made by humans with passion and the model should get built in the same way !

Many greetings !  Hannes

[NickD]

Of the many things I have enjoyed with this thread, one of the most interesting to me has been everyone's different approaches. Each has provided insights that other approaches would have missed. Of particular interest to me are the benefits of a sculptural vs numeric approach and vice versa. On occasion both have shown up limitations in the other's interpretation. I have been most impressed by how good the eye unaided by computers can be. I guess I should not be too surprised, one of my favourite objects is a 5000 year old Egyption sculpture fragement in the British Museum comprising a supersized human forearm. The muscular power captured by the sculptor is fabulous.

 

Responding to Hannes' comment on 3D printers above, I have to agree, without passion a purely numeric approach is souless, providing just a shell. However, there is another dimension for me. The computer is tool like any chisel or brush. It is only as good as the wielder. Even within the apparent precision of the 3D model, interpretation is still required, and for me that is driven by the passion for the machine in much the way you describe. My biggest fear is that I will fail to capture that passion but then that is the same fear I have when using brush, dremel and knife. It's what keeps me, all of us, trying to improve. I have learned so much about my tools on this thread, and I have not touched anything physical at all.

 

I have a related observation concerning museums. They too have to have passion. I tend not to go to many car museums, I think because in the ones I have been too, the cars look dead and dusty. I have been to more aircraft museums. Some fall into the same trap. Manchester is terrible. Shuttleworth is awesome but then the aircraft are still live. Cosford and Duxford are to my mind very clever. The objects will never fly again but look like they want to if given a chance. It is a very fine balance that I think can only be achieved if passion underpins the exhibits.

Well that's more than enough of that. Much too deep for a Saturday.

All the Best

 

Nick

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I have completely changed my strategy for my grille. The brass 1 mm x 1mm squarre rod was replaced by classical 0,5 mm thick plastic card and the slots were not a good idea...

I cut 2 strips of 0,7 mm width in my 0,5 mm card. The horizontal rods will be cemented behind the vertical rods like Robin, but the thickness of 0,5 mm is much better imho than 1 mm, and they won't be flat, what makes the technic more complicated but the result much closer from the rounded aspect we have on the real grille.

 

To handle more easily the 0,4 mm thick steel rods, you need good tweezzers. I have modified mine by inserting fine electric sleeve on the bits of the tweezers:

 

 

The vertical rods must be a bit longer than the free space, to get a little rounded shape:

 

 

Here, I made a mistake, the marker is 0,1 mm and not 0,5 mm as mentioned... Each rod must be cut at the good lenght (plan a little bit longer). Use a fine marker for that.

 

 

 

 

Now, I have 18 horizontal bars cemented.
 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[NickD]

Olivier, that looks much simpler and even from these photos seems to capture well what is a surprisingly complex shape.

 

One thing I noticed recently was that the grill around the starter hole is much flatter. Photo 2 is the best view though it is clear on some of the race shots. The bottom 3 wires seem to be in the same plane. Hopefully study of the photos will make it clear what I mean.

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , that´s real pioneer´s work ! I hope you´re aware that you are the first one in the world who builds a realistic dimensionated grille for our 806 . Great work ! And Nick is right : The vertical struts are bended a bit more at their upper side and become more straight towards the down region. Even if not 100 per cent correct this principle can be seen on drawing 3 too !

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited April 22, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

7 hours ago, NickD said:

Olivier, that looks much simpler and even from these photos seems to capture well what is a surprisingly complex shape.

Nick,

yes, this technic is much more simple. it was very presomptuous and also naive from ma to think doing such slots would allow me to get parallel bars.

But I had to pass by this stage to become aware of the best technique (for me, at least) to get the wished result.

And yes, the shape is complex, because the grille is not flat, especially on the 3/4 up.

You are right, the grille becomes flatter in the lowest part (without being really flat even there, however) and I will take this good comment in consideration.

In fact, the problem for the modelers we are is, once you get the information (photo), to take the time to study it. We are always too in hurry, we want to go on, but we would earn time if we took more time to look really well and study the photos. It is a human defect, and we always have to fight against ourselves and with this will to go too fast, not taking enough time to observe and reflect.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

4 hours ago, Hannes said:

Dear Olivier , that´s real pioneer´s work ! I hope you´re aware that you are the first one in the world who builds a realistic dimensionated grille for our 806 . Great work ! And Nick is right : The vertical struts are bended a bit more at their upper side and become more straight towards the down region. Even if not 100 per cent correct this principle can be seen on drawing 3 too !

Many greetings !  Hannes

Dear Hannes,

yes, I am aware! and that is what gave me the faith to redo 100% my grille! But Robin gave me a good idea, cementing only one rod/ line, when I had, in my first version, cut and cement more than 150 little rods!

I just improved his technique to get:

- not too thick vertical bars (0,5 mm instead of 1 mm)

- "rounded" shape for the grille.

 

I want to repeat here and now that, without all of you, each one bringing his ideas, his talent, my model would be over from a long time but it would be wrong.

It is the first time I take part in a thread (and what a thread!), but making an accurate reproduction of this car required a collective approach, with all the debates we had (sometimes a bit heated...). A definitely fascinating saga...

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

P.S: the ring for the crank provided in the kit is imho a bit too small. Do you have a suggestion to scratchbuild one that would be 15% bigger? 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

The tiny cyano drops (I use Slow dry 21 from Mig) are brought with a home made instrument I ever showed above somewhere in the Gangshow thread or in this one, don't remember. I use a 0,3 mm mechanical pencil in which I have introduced a 0,3 mm Aber steel rod. I never cut the rod, when I want to remove the dry cyano, I use a used blade, very easy. This way, I have a very precise and comfortable instrument. 

 

 

While I take a little rest (the work on the grille is very painstaking), I have decreased the volumes of my driver, that was much too strong (as Sam mentioned with right) and I have added the right hand, without the fingers, that will be added at the last time, once the body is fixed on the frame. Problem: the right hand is too far from the steering wheel. I must modify the angles of the elbow and the shoulder...

 

Done. Here too, still a lot to do, of course...

Edited April 22, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I made this "5 views in one" for the grille. It should help you, as it did for me.

If you look well, there is a bending of the vertical rods under the bar that stands the front leaf spring. You can see it particularly on views 1 and 3:

Edited April 22, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , as far I can see these struts also bend a bit just where the crossbeam is situated . So I was wrong and your original solution seems to be right ! It looks like a very wide arch with an almost straight middle part . We also can forget drawing 3 regarding these struts !  Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited April 22, 2017 by Hannes

[Robin Lous]

Looks great Olivier! 

 

For the crank hole I used 1/24 scale photo etched cockpit instrument bezels from Airscale...3 glued on top of eachother, because they're way too thin to use just one.

An easy way to make it...use a slice of a 3mm brass tube...just an idea 

 

I had a very busy week, so nothing new to show right now, but....I got myself some nice books on the subject!

More soon!

 

Robin

[NickD]

Chaps that was more or less my conclusion too. The starter hole seems to determine the grill geometry at the bottom. If it had been tilted too much it would have needed to be oval to clear the starter handle. They therefore had to have it more or less vertical and the grill surface followed this.

 

Nick

[Totally Mad Olivier]

32 minutes ago, Robin Lous said:

An easy way to make it...use a slice of a 3mm brass tube...just an idea 

 

Thanks for the infos, Robin. I had the same idea but the shape of this ring is rounded itself. If I cut a slice of brass (or other) tube, I will get sharp edges that won't be easy to get round.

I will try to dig, as you did, in my old kit's box, hoping I will find what I want...

The books look great! No more infos about our car except the color, I suppose??

 

Olivier

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I still made little adjustments and now, I like the general attitude of my driver. The right hand falls naturally on the steering wheel and I have more space for the back seat (there was not enough room up to now). You could think that the driver is too close from the steering wheel, but look at our docs and you will see that it was so, very far from what it is now, of course!

 

 

 

Finally, I am gonna be able to add at least partially the fingers of the right hand. It should not interfere with the placement of the body on the frame. Good new, I was a bit afraid of doing that after (it would have been more difficult).

Edited April 22, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Come-back to my grille. The photo 1 is to show a blade holder very useful here, because it is magnet tipped. You can easily catch the very thin steel rod on your workbench. All what can make you work on the grille easier is good to take...

 

You must take care - through others! - to the good horizontality of your steel rods. The curve you give to each one of them (try to give the same curve, not easy...) can affect this horizontality. I don't say that to discourage you but it is true that the curve does not help. This grille must be done in calm and focus.

 

 

P.S:

1) I cemented my 30th rod, and the lenght from the up is 26,5 mm, what means that I should be nearly OK for the number of rods at the end, around 51 ones. 

2) Of course, I will decenter the ring for the crank

Edited April 23, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Robin Lous]

Olivier,

It's really easy to cut a piece of brass tube without messing up it's round shape.

The magic word is..."sliding tube"...ok, that's 2 words.

When you use 3mm tube with a 2mm tube inside...it will hold it's shape!

Best tool to cut it off...a small grinding disk (silicon carbide) for Proxxon or Dremel.

With this tool you can carefully grind through the tube...file and sand to get a smooth edge.

I used this tool and technique to make the front leaf spring axle...including the cranck hole on it.

It takes very little practise...use low speed and very little pressure, work underneath a magnifying lamp for accuracy.

 

I'm not the most handy guy, but this woked for me! 

(I tried a saw first, but that was a disaster.)

 

@NickD

 

On 22-4-2017 at 07:51, NickD said:

Of the many things I have enjoyed with this thread, one of the most interesting to me has been everyone's different approaches. Each has provided insights that other approaches would have missed. 

(etc.)

So true Nick,

Nice to see how we all find different parts of the build "important" to focus on and we all do it slightly different...with a slightly different result.

No 806 model will ever be the same. We all make it with extra love here..and less of it there. Not to mention...the personal touch you'll see on all models.

I've seen a lot of finished 806 builds by now...and they're all different. Not a single one build straight out of the box without any changes. Some more, some less.

This "806 club" goes a little further perhaps, but the same applies here...and that's nice.

 

Robin 

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Robin Lous

[Totally Mad Olivier]

52 minutes ago, Robin Lous said:

It's really easy to cut a piece of brass tube without messing up it's round shape.

Robin,

I think you didn't understand what I meant, talking about "round shape". I think about the edges of the ring, not about the ring itself. Look at the ring on, fe, photo 20. You will see that the shape is not flat. If I cut a pice of brass tube, it will be difficult to grind the edges on a so small part to get this "edge round shape". Hope it sounds clear...

To the limit, I would prefer a stretched plastic technique, and that's probably what I will use if I don't find what I want in my "scrap box"

Edited April 23, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Robin Lous]

ah...ok. 

You can still sand the edge with 600 or 800 sandpaper before you cut the tube to the desired lenght...I think.

Or...paint the edge a few times with gloss enemal paint...this gives a rounded edge also.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Not found in my scrap box, but maybe I have an idea: a 5 mm diameter rubber gasket, (Robin, you talked about 3 mm but the kit's one, too small, is ever 3,44 mm). This gasket should be around 1 mm thick. This should not be too difficult to find, I suppose...

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Robin Lous]

true...3mm is a bit tight, but 5 seems a bit too much also...settle for 4mm? 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Robin,

I made a measure to check the ring diameter. I get 7,6 mm! I think it is a bit too much, but 4 mm is imho much too small, and even 5 mm is probably a bit too. Finally, I would go for 6 mm, which is a compromise / my measure. 

For this measure, I used photo 12, on which we have the grille just in front. 

You can do your own measure, and give me the result you get. 

But let's agree to say we don't have 6 mm in height, because the ring eats a part of the low grille frame...

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Robin Lous]

Best let Nick/Hannes/Roy take a look before you start, because I think this photo is among the most distorted photo's we have.

I'm terrible with maths, but I have a 6mm tube and when I looked at it...it scared me! It looks huge!

I'll be surprised when that's right.

 

I have no mathematical proof, but 6mm looks stange and wrong imho.

[Hannes]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hannes]

I wanted to show you my altered bodywork without seat fairing / seat . I´m content now with it´s basic shape and dimensions Of course besides the detailling minor alterings are still possible .

Unfortunately I will have to dissemble my frame / bottom panel construction again , adapt the width and do the necessary elongations and alterings regarding the frame rails.

Many greetings !  Hannes