Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[NickD]

For the record: I get height =.5594m and width = .3975m. A ratio of 1.407

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I forgot that Sam had very kindly sent me the 7G part, through others. So we had:

- height: 57 mm  now 49 mm which is 8 mm (17%) shorter

- width: 31 mm  now 35 mm which is 4 mm (10%) wider

 

But because a photo speaks much better than numbers:

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

The case bends a bit  towards the grille so my radiator case has a ratio of 1 / 1,4 and the grille itself 1 / 1,37  Hannes

Edited April 15, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Because it must not be left to chance, I recommend to draw first your grille. Use tracing paper to reproduce from your computer (drawing 12 before modif) the grille. Ensure the grille on the photo is 49 mm height. The width will be around 38, you will have to reduce it a bit to get 35 mm (if you use my measures).

 

 

The tracing paper is then returned and, with a pencil, "impress" the drawing on a cardboard:

 

You get an accurate reproduction of the grille:

 

Then you must trace the 51 or 52 horizontal lines. As the inside height is 45,5 mm, the rule of 3 will give 8,75 mm/ 10 lines. Trace first the lines of 10 (10, 20, 30etc.) and then the lines of 5, 15, 25 etc., and finally all the lines. Make a stop to leave your eyes take a break...

 

When it is over, you trace the circle for the crank. Don't forget it is slightly left decentered, as the engine:

Edited April 15, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier according Nick´s great wire frame model ( with about 21,5 cm wheelbase ) your radiator case´s height should be about 5,3 -5,4  cm and the width about 3,8 - 3,9 cm ..

All of my cardboard patterns are related on their wheelbases regarding their scales  and in your case there should be a wheelbase of 21,6 cm.( scale 1 / 113 )

So please check it again before starting with detailling work !

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Roy vd M.]

Olivier I note that you simply dismissed my correction of the video height/width ratio without providing a solution for the apparent problem that in the rest of the video the circles (tyres / wheel rims) won't be round. 

 

I can live with that, because I will not be building this car (at least not anytime soon) but I just hope you are not fooling yourself for the sake of defending your own findings. 

 

For your own benefit and that of the (stringent) followers of this thread I remind you that your way of measuring things, on the basis of a lens-distorted photo, is not accurate. Photo 28 cannot be used to take realistic measurements of the front or aft side of the car, for example. I refer to my own study of the Delage pictures in which the car is seen from a distance. Moving half a meter to the left will provide a completely different interpretation of the car. Every photo is lens-distorted. That's why Nick is having such a hard time making his 3D-model, without accurate drawings. It is possible to correct the lens distortion, to some extent, through software. But then you'll need to know the settings of the camera. Regarding the 1927 photos we don't know that information and we won't. Your method of measuring non-corrected ancient photos (the measuring you are doing having no pixel-correct accuracy in itself, I'd like to add) is not going to help you set the detail measurements or proportions.

 

So I'd suggest that until you'll provide an answer to the question why, with your measurements, the wheels in the documentary are elliptical, please be cautious to tell others what is right and what is wrong. 

 

With due respect for all the work you have been doing I really miss the cautious and scientific approach, not only with you but also with Hannes, that seemed to be present at the start of this topic. This having said I do admire the way both Hannes' and your models have been evolving. They both really are a huge improvement to the kit's shape and details. 

[Hannes]

Dear Roy , in my opinion Nick´s wire-frame models are not far from scientific truth .All corrections that still need to be done depend  on a kind of spiritualization that needs time and corrections too if necessary imho. And you are right , we cannot be too self-confident and doubts are necessary for the creative process . My personal proceeding is to keep options for alterings open as long as possible till everything falls into place . At a certain stage scientific proceeding is just not possible anymore imho as long we don´t have more documents . But I believe , that the numerous documents we have so far should be sufficient to build a realistic model !

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited April 16, 2017 by Hannes

[Roy vd M.]

I much admire Nick's perseverance and I agree his 3D model would be my primary source of information if I'll ever built this beautiful racer. It seems to not be far from the true lines and shape of the real car.

[CrazyCrank]

@Olivier de St Raph

I'm strongly struck by the resemblance between your face (shown on your avatar), and the face of the miniature you've chosen to feature Bordino 

As a physician and as a scientist, I dot not believe in coincidences 

It's rather funny  and very "cool" 

No relationship with the subject of discussion, but I wanted to say it 

[Hannes]

Dear Thierry , that´s completely normal for a beginning sculptor ! When I was studying almost all of the co-students made heads with similar lineaments compared with their own faces when starting with sculptural work. I believe it´s important because if you learn to understand your own anatomy you will get a deeper insight in your own soul too !

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Dear Hannes and Crazy,

funny, what you say (Hannes had ever done this comment above), because for now, I have nearly not been working on the face. To be honest, I have added a little resin to increase the cheeks and reduced and rounded the jawline, inspired by Bordino's face. But maybe I look like him! 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

My drawing has been improved a bit. It seems to me now very close from truth. It is time to compare now with the radiator case 7G I have increased in width. What seems obvious in that comparison is that the up part must be much rounded (green arrows). Of course, the future grille will have to follow the same shape...

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

In order to reproduce as well as possible the left hand (I decided that it would be laid on his thigh), I made this photo:

[sharknose156]

is there still a PM ? i seem to have lost it all. 

 

[Robin Lous]

2 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

is there still a PM ? i seem to have lost it all. 

 

Yes there is, I think Olivier misunderstood you when you told about the notifications being annoying.

It seems he removed you 

I'm sure he'll invite you again when he read this.

And more good news...you can turn off the notifications (I did that also!)

On top of the page is an "options" button, when you click on it you can turn them off.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Robin Lous

[Robin Lous]

Since I like to install the radiator cover and forward leaf spring axle before painting the chassis...I checked the kit's axle and decided to make a new one.

Had to shorten the cranck hole shaft anyway, because I shortened the radiator cover.

After checking the photo's (photo 21 is pretty good) and drawing 1 and 2...

 

Made from sliding brass tubes, scrap PE and 0,3 mm brass sheet.

The brass nut is a Knupfer M1,4 Typ 304, the small "end bolt" is a 0,53 mm bolt head #1250B from RB Motion.

The washers were likely not on the axle, but for ease of construction I added them anyway. they're about 0,15 mm thick and they sit against the chassis, so... hardly visible.

 

Edit: after I took the photo's I did a dry fit with the radiator. Shortened the crank hole shaft about one more mm to get a good match with the hole in the grille.

 

More soon,

 

Robin

Edited April 16, 2017 by Robin Lous

[Hannes]

It´s too beautiful to paint it later on !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

23 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

Olivier I note that you simply dismissed my correction of the video height/width ratio without providing a solution for the apparent problem that in the rest of the video the circles (tyres / wheel rims) won't be round. 

Dear Roy,

I know we have a little disagreement on that point. I don't pretend to be 100% true, but I try to be so, but using different ways than you, Hannes or Nick. When I see the correction you made on photo 12, it seems to me that the correction is too important: the proportions height/ width of the fairing and the front axle seem to me too height, compared with other docs. I noticed that when I made the fairing. I used this doc and got a too height fairing, that I had to increase a lot then. I trust more than you in my intuition.

But when I look at all photos where the car is seen more or less frontally, I think I am closer from truth now than I was before, in other words the grille is more squarred than what I still thought not long ago.

And that is all what counts for me.

But of course, no one is forced to do the same than me, and to think I am right.

I just try - as you or Nick or Hannes  etc. - to be as close as possible, each one of us using his own strategy and his own style.

 

P.S: Be sure it was not easy for me to take the decision to redo my grille, it would have been much more simple to keep it like that, but looking at our docs, it became difficult. The big efforts done to be accurate would have been partially ruined by wrong proportions of grille and radiator case...

 

All the best

Edited April 16, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

4 hours ago, Robin Lous said:

Yes there is, I think Olivier misunderstood you when you told about the notifications being annoying.

It seems he removed you 

Indeed, that's what I thought. Sam, didn't you say you wanted to leave the conversation?

If it is a misunderstanding and you want to get the conversation posts, tell me and I will come-back on the removing with pleasure.

 

P.S: I don't forget you about the Mef photos, but I won't be able to do it until a few days...

Edited April 16, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[NickD]

Olivier,

 

Here is an example of just how hard it is to be accurate when looking at pictures. I spotted a tiny misalignment in the line of the bonnet. It looked like a slight rotational error. When i corrected it by just 0.5 deg. the rear suspension uprights moved 20mm FS. They now line up again with drawing 2. There have been many examples of this for me since November. This change happened after 6 months of trying to extract the geometry from the pictures. I still have not managed to sort out the front grill - the studio and race shots look different in ways I can't explain.

 

As you say above we all have our own methods and combining them we have got to where we are today.

 

Having been wrong so many times, I am not in a position to say I am right and you are wrong. But I would echo Roy and say extreme care is required. You, more than any of us, have suffered the cost of any uncertainty. As Roy says this analysis must be based on evidence and structured reasoning, if we contaminate the story with opinion, all our answers might be questionable. To my mind, as with Roy, we need to careful not to offer as truth unsupported opinion. Eyeballing photos is not easy. Otherwise I would have used it instead of Blender and saved myself a vast amount of time.

Regards

Nick

 

 

[sharknose156]

7 hours ago, Robin Lous said:

I'm sure he'll invite you again when he read this.

And more good news...you can turn off the notifications (I did that also!)

Thank you very much ! 

 

Olivier Please reinstate me ?  thank you !

no problem for the Photos at your ease, many thanks

[sharknose156]

Dear All,

 

Reading the exchanges on the proportions and dimensions, from you all having spent each a lot of time, rigor and different techniques, using time consuming scientific and intuitive techniques ( no need to mention names ),

 

; May i propose that - if this thread after reaching a record 106 pages of serious work is to lead to anything historically solid and referential -  that we all reach a consensus on proportions to a certain i.e 3 %  for

"what the 806 must have most probably looked like at the Monza 1927 race day, pre-race". 

 

This would be a consensus ( not a compromise ) according to this group who has spent the most time searching for the 806's real dimensions, more than Italeri, Protar and many serious professional journalists i may add, who have not proposed anything better - far from it - with due respect to them.

 

we should call this 806 something like "the Phantom of the Opera' ( just kidding) but some name we should all propose and vote for, the same for the proportions.

 

Once we reach a consensus on dimensions between the scientific and the intuitive sleuths, 

Nick and/or Roy, if they agree, would be the best suited perhaps to produce drawings ?! 

which could be used by anyone who would like to produce the most accurate 806,  hypothetically, but from authority.

 

this would be very helpful for future builders, and it still leaves total freedom of interpretation to those who are inclined to strongly disagree.

[Hannes]

There were almost no discussions about the top -view of the car and the form of the frame rails  with right distances . It´s very important too imho to find the right form of the body panels which end at the Bordino tip . The Protar designers created a very overpointed end of the rear and in Nick´s top-view there are two genle curved lines  which meet at the tip .

I wonder about myself  that  I did not pay  enough attention regarding the top view  ( frame rails and bodywork )  If the side body panels are more curved it will show a different impression  of the body´s lenght as more straight parts . The more a part is curved the more vanishes behind it´s vertex ( of course depending on the point of view ).

Many greetings !  Hannes

 

[sharknose156]

in fact, what i mean is that we need conclusions even with a margin of error of 3 % max.

 

perhaps, if we can not reach a consensus, or at worst a compromise, we may produce two versions:

1. Based on serious scientific analytical work on the pictures.

2. Intuitive and logical deductive work, from both Olivier, who is flawless, not to say a perfectionist in his very technical profession of dentist, and including of course, from a talented sculptor, strong in his craft, who also has solid base technical knowledge on cars as well.

 

[Roy vd M.]

Sam I agree with you and I think Nick is approaching the result by perfecting his 3D-model. Eventually, on the basis of that model all required measurements can be made. 

 

No pressure Nick