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Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds


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12 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

I can imagine there were none, or that a few holes were simply drilled at the lowest part of the floor, to the back so that at straight parts of the circuit the water would be allowed to escape the cockpit. That's the same (simple) system as used in a water collector, often seen between bonnet and windscreen of a normal car. If the Fiat used another, more elaborate, system just for rain... maybe we'll never know; but it would seem a bit labor-intensive to me. Beside that, perhaps the water would escape the cockpit in a more natural way, as mentioned by Robin before: through gaps in the floor; which might be the reason for the steering wheel screen. Those holes would in that case not only (fortunately) serve to let out water, but (unfortunately) also to let it in.  

Thanks Roy for your photos and your comment. I hope Paul will be able to help us on that question... I could ask to Sebastien too, but his book shows imho that he is more interested and focused on engines conception and construction than on frames ones.

That said, the more I think to that question, the more I have doubts about this assumption (like you?).  A good reason to have doubts is that all racing cars (including Fiat ones) of that period were opened and they don't have such slots. So we can imagine there were other solutions  -and more simple indeed - to drain water, as you suggest, and the fact that the Delage did not have them, confirms this. The problem is that we even don't know if these slots are just the low part of the frame or if they are included in the bottom panel. In this case, the bottom panel as the kit suggests would be wrong, because it would be with slots itself, probably in order to decrease the weight of the car, compared with a full metal one....

N.B: I am surprised to see the numerous posts today, I will not have enough time to read them all tonight. It is a good new, after more than 90 pages, following the more than 40 ones of the Gangshow...

 

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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For what it is worth, I'd side with roy, harvey and black knight on the topic of rivets. Flush rivets are more or less invisible at distance. We discussed this some time ago and I thought we had reached this conclusion then. The same with the black holes.

 

I'd also just posted thoughts on the strips a few pages ago that don't seem to have attracted any disagreement but are completely different from the position above. I strongly believe that they are not slots but are, for some reason, cut-outs perhaps used to bolt the undertray to the frame. Hannes drawings offer a clear description but I don't think they are right.

 

Regards

 

Nick

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The hardest in all these questions we wonder is to think we won't have the answers. We would like so much to know if we were right or wrong in all these assumptions we have to do... A little as when you do difficult crosswords, and you check in the solutions page. Here, you can't check! Very frustrating...

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Dear Olivier , that´s part 7 G . I´m about to make a new one from the Italeri part because my old one had too thick walls . The ratio between height and width is  1,45 : 1 imho.

In my  scale that´s a height of 5,8 and a width of 4 cm .Because the case bends a bit at the top, my final height will be about 5,75 cm   I´m already advanced with my build and this brass foil helped a lot to bring all parts together . Maybe I should draw a scetch in the next days to show how this important part can get altered.

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited by Hannes
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Olivier,

 

Back in November, after 40 pages of the gangshow, I thought we were done. I did not believe we would find anything else. How wrong was I?

 

Unfortunately, we can't just get our video cameras and capture every exquisite detail. We are left with the balance of probabilities.

 

As we are seeing that balance is probably different for each of us. As a result any cars built will be different from each other, all will be right in their own terms and I suspect any that use this thread as a source will be much much closer than the base kit to that lost spectacular origninal. That must be a good healthy place for our hobby to be.

 

When you go to Centro, and I'd love to be there, there is every chance you will come back with something new that we have never seen before. As Hannes says, the research part of this is facinating.

 

Regards

 

Nick

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No big cheese to be made out of the rainfall evacuation in a racing car; there are plenty of openings inside a racing car, specially an 1927 car and specially at the openings where the axis of the wheels cross with the chassis. 

 

So no need for specific rain evacuation holes on the floors of these car. They where built banging pieces together not as a carbon monocoque chassis. 

 

What is important during a rainy race is that the pedals are not slippery, and water does not stagnate in this part of the car under the pedals. (And in old cars, that the electric cables and plugs are well insulated).

 

Hence the possibility (not certainty) imho of this water evacuation function in the 806 cockpit of these small openings - if this is indeed what they are in the  picture  - and as per Hannes' well done drawing. 

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On 26/03/2017 at 8:32 PM, Robin Lous said:

The radiator with Olivier's Aber mesh...

The radiator itself painted with Vallejo Burnt Iron, the mesh matt black, and the brass frame.

I cut the mesh with decal scissors, this was fairly easy. I placed it on top of the radiator and cut it around the edge.

Reduced the thickness of the radiators by sanding the backside, so they still fit into the slots with the mesh on them..

Dear Robin,

I come back on your radiator. I must say I was surprised seeing you used the Italeri parts 130 and 131D. In my mind, the Aber mesh replaced them.

You used both, just reducing the thickness of the radiators, and the result is great.

I will follow your topic.

Just a question: now, you have to close the gaps between 132 and 133D. Wouldn't it be better to assemble them before, to avoid this problem?

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19 hours ago, Robin Lous said:

I was wondering about this. The 806 kit has no reinforced sidewalls, but I strongly believe these are needed.

On that question, I think we can say one more time that the missing element for us now is mainly a cockpit view. Were there reinforcements, tubes, connectors, rivets?

If only my travel to Torino could bring some replies on these questions, I would not regret the travel...

Personally, I had to make reinforcements after having cut my cockpit to decrease its lenght. I have added rivets on these reinforcement strips. I like it like that, but of course, we don't know how it was really...

About tubes running over the Delage floor, I would be tempted to add some, but without certainty, I hesitate...

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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18 hours ago, Hannes said:

And I also doubt these black points on the main frame are rivets at all ! For me these black points seem to be holes ! (maybe hollow rivets ? )

I fully agree with you on that point, Hannes, and I explained above that I used a drill (0,5 mm if I remember) to drill these holes on the frame.

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16 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

Edit: feel free to ignore the erotic noises. It was quite hard for me (using muscles I don't have) to make this video of reasonable quality while not touching the car. :D 

Thank you Roy for these great videos, very interesting! And worth the effort...

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Today I was visiting Mr. Laube again and asked him some questions regarding bodywork and bottom panel.

The support frames could have been connected with the bodywork as follows :

The first frame was connected as Fred suggested and you can see on my scetch on page 59.

The second one for the steering column was firmly connected with the main frame and was riveted under the fairing .It could have been not only a frame but a sheet tooo.

The third one is a combination of two frames one supports the tank , the other one the bodywork . It must have been riveted under the seat´s fairing and at other spots too.

The rivets we can see on the rear of the car have nothing to do with a support frame connection .

Regarding the bottom panel Mr. Laube was not sure what we see here , He said ,every brand had their own constructions and it looks like the bottom sheet was strenghtened by riveted sheets , similar my scetch.He also said at the front of this panel there could have been pinnacle -like cut outs like Nick suggested.

I also asked him about a second panel above the bottom sheet .

He said , in his opinion there was no second panel for weight reasons . The seat was mounted on struts and only a small panel existed where the driver could put his heels on.

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited by Hannes
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Dear Olivier , do you really intend to use this small radiator in your radiator case ? Don´t forget , if you build the case according the original , the width will be about 4 cm !

The kit´s radiator would look not very convincing in this case imho. I will make a scratchbuild , but there´s the possibility too to use the kit´s radiator frame  parts by elongating them

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited by Hannes
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13 minutes ago, Hannes said:

Dear Olivier , do you really intend to use this small radiator in your radiator case ? Don´t forget , if you build the case according the original , the width will be about 4 cm !

Dear Hannes,

I don't know yet what I will do with the radiator. My next steps will concern the steering column, the gearbox, the fuel tank, the driver's seat etc. All the front part will come a bit later. One thing is sure, I will try to get the best result for the front part of the car, as I did for the other aspects (bodywork, frame, steering wheel, leaf springs, wheels etc. If the kit's radiator can't be used with a good result, I won't use it.

All the best

Olivier

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Mr Laube is about to restore a MB 300 SL gullwing with a blue color . What a beautiful car ! Tomorrow I´ll post some pics of my new radiator case without liquid filler so you can see my construction .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited by Hannes
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The MB 300 SL convertible is one of the first kit I made when, around 40 (I am now nearly 54), I decided to find back model making I had been enjoying when I was 15... Now, it is in my son's room. I will post 1 or 2 photos of this kit when I'll be back home. It was an Italeri 1/18kit if I remember well. It seems to me this build is much older than 14 years...

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Sorry , the drawing  on the right side at the bottom is not correct ! ( the encircled drawing with the 0,5 / 0,5 mm strips )  These small strips are connected directly with the curved strip and the side panel should end where the brass sheet ends .Hannes

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Thank you Hannes for your contribution. I have a question: how can you be sure of the ratio 1: 1,45?

One thing is remarkable with this radiator case: following the photos, we may have very different proportions. If we know now that the kit's proportions are completely wrong, we can wnder what is the exact proportion...

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Dear Olivier , I´m not completely sure about the ratio .I did a lot of measurements and compared so I considered this ratio as most likely . But in the end it was an eyesight decision and I believe , I´m not far away from truth.In my opinion this complex should not be seen isolated but in connection  with the other parts of the car . That´s the reason why  I constructed a cradle so I can compare directly .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited by Hannes
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10 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Dear Robin,

I come back on your radiator. I must say I was surprised seeing you used the Italeri parts 130 and 131D. In my mind, the Aber mesh replaced them.

You used both, just reducing the thickness of the radiators, and the result is great.

I will follow your topic.

Just a question: now, you have to close the gaps between 132 and 133D. Wouldn't it be better to assemble them before, to avoid this problem?

Dear Olivier, The mesh alone isn't enough te represent a radiator, so I used both...front and rear..and mesh on both.

Without the kit's radiators...it will be just mesh and that looks like there's just mesh:lol:

Also...the "15" looks much better with the radiator...white paint went through the mesh...on the radiator. With a nice result.

 

I painted the brass casing before assembly, because you can't paint the interior of it afterwards...the outside needs another coat of brass after filling and sanding.

Careful masking needed now!...I don't want to see my "15" mesh destroyed by brass paint.

 

Yes...I know the kit's radiator is wrong, but changing this (and the engine cover with it) is beyond my modeliling skills...so I have to live with the shame:lol:

 

Edit: it's also easier to mask and paint the "15" on the mesh when it's not yet part of the whole construction.

 

Cheers!, Robin

Edited by Robin Lous
forgot to mention something
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In my opinion Mr. Laube was right when he said , support system 3 was riveted . If you look very closely to photo 7A , you can see 3 flat rivets before the three slots.

On photo 2 we can see a single rivet under the seat fairing . As you can see on drawing 2 (side-view ) ,this  frame was connected with the tank-supporting frame imho .

Pity we don´t have detail plans or a more detailled top-view of drawing 2. Hannes

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12 hours ago, Robin Lous said:

The mesh alone isn't enough te represent a radiator, so I used both...front and rear..and mesh on both.

Thanks again Robin for your topic and explanations above about the radiator, that will be very helpful for me.

 

5 hours ago, Hannes said:

Mr. Laube was right when he said , support system 3 was riveted . If you look very closely to photo 7A , you can see 3 flat rivets before the three slots.

Dear Hannes, I don't see well what you mean by "support system 3"...

 

 

I have checked the kit's seat - that I won't use as it stands because I don't like the "rubber look" -. The backrest seems to have the good dimensions, the seat is IMHO a bit too long, especially in my reduced lenght cockpit. But I think this part is globally a good base. Notice that, with this kit's seat, you nearly don't see anymore the metal floor... Any suggestion, opinion about this seat will be welcome...

 

 

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P.S: Roy, you suggested that, on your 2nd video, from 32", we could see how the water was drained. I haven't found the answer in the video (great furthermore, good detective job!). What is your conclusion?

 

P.S2: Hannes, I have got yesterday the 0,1 mm thick brass foil. A good hint, thanks. I don't know yet how I will manage these slots, and if I will use the brass foil for that, but it will find many applications, anyway. I think I will use it particularly for the bonnets stand, at the front part of my body...

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Remember: I had bought a figure (T.L Lauwrence) at 1/12 scale, with the idea to represent Bordino. I was not sure to place him in the cockpit. The decision is taken, he will be on his seat, as we can see him on many photos (1, 2, 4, 7, 9 etc.). I have begun to cut his legs and arms to have an idea about the seat height. The first feeling is that the seat is too height, too thick. The fifure is mad of a resin not so easy to work, and producing a lot of dust. I wear a mask when cutting. There will be a lot of work to get the "Bordino look", but luckily, both are not tall (Lawrence was 1,66 m, and the photos of Bordino I have show he was probably nearly the same) and they resemble each other a lot, don't you think?

 

 

IxZN7Qi.jpg

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Dear Olivier , support system 3 means the support frames of the bodywork behind the druiver´s seat . Read my post above , when I spoke with Mr. Laube !

I´m curious regarding your MB model in 1 : 18 . If you show me your MB , I´ll show you a MB model in 1 : 18 I made !

Many greetings !  Hannes

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