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Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds


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That´s funny ,under " Protar Fiat 806 " I found a 1/24 paper kit of our car at ebay. It costs 10 Dollar , but they dont send it by ship to Germany.

It´s interesting for us because there´s  a different photo of the master model printed on this kit . The dimension of the radiator grille seems to be OK contrary to the Protar / Italeri version !

Maybe someone  of you has the opportunity to order this paper kit !  Hannes

Edited by Hannes
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The radiator with Olivier's Aber mesh...

The radiator itself painted with Vallejo Burnt Iron, the mesh matt black, and the brass frame.

I cut the mesh with decal scissors, this was fairly easy. I placed it on top of the radiator and cut it around the edge.

Reduced the thickness of the radiators by sanding the backside, so they still fit into the slots with the mesh on them..

806-009_zps6vwdud5r.jpg

 

Carefuly glued the mesh to the radiator...just a couple of tiny drops of super glue on the edges.

 

806-010_zps132a5xgz.jpg

 

Airbrushed the "15".

I always stick masking tape to the palm of my hand a few times before I use it, this will make it less sticky and reduces the chance of ripping off the paint underneath.

A whole bunch of misty (high pressure, not much paint, from a fair distance) layers of white to avoid running under the tape and clogging the mesh.

 

806-011_zpsewlys3jh.jpg

 

Pretty pleased with the result. Still need to fill, clean up and re-paint the gaps.

I think the mesh was a great idea! Thanks again Olivier!

 

Done enough for today...more tomorrow :smile:

 

Robin

 

Edited by Robin Lous
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51 minutes ago, Robin Lous said:

Pretty pleased with the result. Still need to fill, clean up and re-paint the gaps.

I think the mesh was a great idea! Thanks again Olivier!

You're welcome, Robin, and you are right being pleased, it is a very nice job, that will be inspiring for me who haven't yet done this step...

 

 

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Dear Olivier , that´s a very kind offer !  But it´s about this photo of the mastermodel which could be shown in our collection  ( maybe together with this 2-pages kit ) Because this is more a collector´s piece I guess noone of us would cut it out and glue it together . A good idea would be if you keep the original and give us the opportunity to print out this Fiat-sponsored kit.

Many thanks and many greetings !  Hannes

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Dear Olivier , still another topic : You said you already ordered this thin brass-sheet . This kind of sheet is very useful for altering plastic parts !  In combination with plastic and super-glue you will get a firm and stable construction, Remember when you had to connect both bodywork´s parts ? Because this sheet is  so thin you could have made an invisible connection with only a little bit of filler , to  get smooth transitions .

I know what I´m talking about , because right now I´m building a new radiator case out of the Italeri´s plastic part. The reason for that is the fact , that my Protar case with some plastic and alu plates has way too thick walls especially at it´s backside. Because at least 2 sections are necessary a good connection is  important .

This sheet really helps a lot to solve these problems ! Of course 0,5 and 1 mm thick plastic plates must be glued on this sheet and the usual  filler-filing -sanding work must be done.

As much as I know , you did not yet change your radiator case so my advice could be helpful for you ! And if you intend to build a scratch radiator , this sheet could be used to show the brass  radiator frame !

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited by Hannes
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Dear all,

 

I have just sent to Paul this email:

 

Dear Paul,

 
On the 806, we have noticed slots at the low part of the frame (totally missing on the kit…) and we are wondering if these slots are for water evacuation in case of rain (and it had to be very useful on that race day at Monza the 4/09/27 that was very rainy). On the photo joined, red arrows...
Are there such slots on the Delage? How was the water evacuated on this rival car? 
Could you check on the Delage you have at the Rev’s and tell me your opinion on that question, Paul?
Reproducing that would be another challenge on a model that had many ones… Hannes has suggested a clever solution, shown on the 2nd joined doc that I send to you.
Thank you for your help.
 
All the best 
 
Olivier
 

 

 

 

I hope Paul (who won't reply from the 2nd april, I ever got an automatic answer saying he is not at the office now) will be able to confirm the assumption of water  drainage for these slots.

Roy, you who made so many photos of the Delage, did you notice what kind of construction was imagined for water evacuation for that car which had necessarly the same necessity?

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Olivier I didn't see any drainage slots or other kind of holes. 

 

32833041424_e84d743152_h.jpg

 

32862677073_3260df820f_h.jpg

 

32833041024_075cbf639e_h.jpg

 

33546621781_8204feb572_h.jpg

 

 

I can imagine there were none, or that a few holes were simply drilled at the lowest part of the floor, to the back so that at straight parts of the circuit the water would be allowed to escape the cockpit. That's the same (simple) system as used in a water collector, often seen between bonnet and windscreen of a normal car. If the Fiat used another, more elaborate, system just for rain... maybe we'll never know; but it would seem a bit labor-intensive to me. Beside that, perhaps the water would escape the cockpit in a more natural way, as mentioned by Robin before: through gaps in the floor; which might be the reason for the steering wheel screen. Those holes would in that case not only (fortunately) serve to let out water, but (unfortunately) also to let it in.  

Edited by Roy vd M.
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A different subject, but these photo's are showing it nicely...(see @Roy vd M.'s post above).

 

Internal sidewall reinforcing panels and flat rivets.

I was wondering about this. The 806 kit has no reinforced sidewalls, but I strongly believe these are needed.

Without.. a thin aluminium bodywork has no strength whatsoever. Specially the cockpit sides will be very weak and deform very easily.

On the 806 photo's we see no rivets, but they're low quality and flat rivets are hardly visible (not at all when filled before painting).

When I look at the interior of other cars, I find it highly unlikely the 806 body has no rivets apart from the large ones behind the rear axle.

Because we don't see them, doesn't mean the car didn't had any.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Robin

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi Robin,

 

I am of the same opinion regarding cockpit reinforcement....surely there had to be something, even if just a double skin. When I eventually get around to start building this beautiful car, the cockpit area will get some special attention to detail!:D

 

Cheers, H

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Dear Robin ,that´s a good question ! As I said above there are 4 supporting frames , 2 before the driver and two behind him .

The construction  of the two rear frames seems to be understandable , one small supports the tank , the other one  is connected with the body by rivets ,There also seems to be an additional wire construction ( under the Bordino tip for instance )  which was welded to the support frame imho .Maybe the tank itself had a supporting function too .

There  was a discussion in this thread how the first support frame ( after the bonnets ) was connected with the bodywork .Fred´s theory was it was riveted over the support for the bonnets , if there was a firewall , these rivets could hold the body , support frame and the firewall as well . I made some scetches about this topic , but I´m not sure if it reflects reality .

For the second frame , which holds the steering column I don´t have no answer how this construction was connected with the bodywork.Maybe there was a different construction in our car .

There were wires at all edges and the alu was folded around them so there was a stiffening effect . The body was bended in 90 degree where it was connected with the main frame .

At this time alu-welding was already possible , so maybe some strenghtening sheets were welded inside to give more stability to the bodyworks .

I don´t believe in invisible rivets . And I also doubt these black points on the main frame are rivets at all ! For me these black points seem to be holes ! (maybe hollow rivets ? )

However , I´m going to visit Mr. Laube in the next days and ask him about these issues . He´s a specialist regarding alu bodies and fortunately lives in my hometown.

Many greetings !  Hannes

 

Edited by Hannes
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Dear Hannes,

 

-When you look at the first photo of Roy's post...these rivets are not very visible...certainly not from a distance. Also this car "had a life" this puts stress on the rivets and the sheet around them.

The 806 was brand new car. When you take a 1927 reporter quality photo of the car from a distance these flat rivets might not show.

It's maybe like when you look at a WWII Spitfire...look at it from a distance and it's a smooth plane...when you stand next to it...you'll see thousands of small rivets.

-I agree about the holes in the chassis...they certainly don't look like rivets...they look like holes.

-The folded edge...over a wire or otherwise.. will give some stifness and strenght, but it's also (mainly?) meant to create a rounded smooth edge instead of a knife like sharp edge.

I doubt this alone provides enough strenght to keep the bodywork from deforming. A driver or mechanic climbing in and out will already make it look like a mess.

-I support the likelyhood of a firewall...even more rivets needed!

-I doubt welding was/is possible on thin aluminium sheet material. When the 806 had no rivets at all (like the kit) it would have been top secret rocket science not seen on any other period car....or it would have the strenght and stifness of a wet noodle:lol:

 

Cheers,

 

Robin

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19 minutes ago, Robin Lous said:

-When you look at the first photo of Roy's post...these rivets are not very visible...certainly not from a distance.

 

About the visibility of bolts and rivets on different distances, a comparison:

 

Three close-up pictures

32833041424_e84d743152_h.jpg

 

33639414426_7ec1906c45_h.jpg 

33550630331_378031ed93_h.jpg 

Approximately 1 meter from car (compare with Photo 26)

33523562772_4b5565d505_h.jpg 

Some distance from car (compare with Photos 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 21, 28)

33639404196_7f260d182f_h.jpg 

Some more distance from car (compare with Photos 4, 25)

33523566982_7dc597e982_h.jpg 

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Dear Robin , the wire should prevent the alu from getting ripped apart  at the edges . I admit , it´s difficult to weld such a thin alu sheet . And regarding the rivets : Even if these flat rivets itself are hard to see , the marks cannot get avoided so easily like you can see on Roy´s photos. Our photos 1-3 are sharp enough imho to show these kind of marks .

It´s really detective´s work , what we are doing in our thread ! 

Many greetings !  Hasnnes

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While looking for interesting stuff for your cockpit work studies I think I found an answer to one question... water drainage of the Delage. See the second video below (in which I used my camera light), from 32 seconds. 

 

 

  

 

  

Edit: feel free to ignore the erotic noises. It was quite hard for me (using muscles I don't have) to make this video of reasonable quality while not touching the car. :D 

 

Edited by Roy vd M.
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Dear Hannes,

 

806 photo's 1-3 are heavily retouched and from about the same distance as the first full size photo shown by Roy (taken with a modern digital camera).

On Roy's photo the rivets are close to invisible...some vague dents at best....and that's a high quality colour photo.

Another reason not to trust 806 1-3 that much...it's still an unfinished car.

A funny example...the lower engine cover (attached to the chassis).

On 1A it's retouched to full lenght, on 1AA (original same photo) ...hey!?...it's shorter!

On photo's 1(all) and 2...this panel is not bolted to the chassis yet...it lies on top of the bolts (already there). Or...it is bolted on, but a black line retouched in there to confuse us.

On photo 3...a keen eye can see it's now bolted to the chassis!

 

This is pretty much proof 1-3 photos are "work in progress" photo's....not a finished car.

 

And the bad part of the story...all other photo's are unclear.

 

Robin

 

@Roy vd M. thanks a lot...great video's!

Edited by Robin Lous
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Dear Robin on page 24 I gave a link regarding Mr Laube´s factory . Maybe some of the questions could be solved when looking at his works .

Our movie ( documentary on page 1 ) and other researches showed us : This unpainted car was used for the test drives and the condition of the  tyres shows it´s been driven already imho  and it was painted some hours before the race .Only photo 1 A was retouched imho.

Many greetings 1  Hannes

Edited by Hannes
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3 minutes ago, Hannes said:

This unpainted car was used for the test drives and the condition of the  tyres shows it´s been driven already imho  

 

Photo 22 shows the car during one of those test drives. Hopefully Olivier will be able to fetch a larger version of that picture from Centro Storico. It may be the oldest photo of all and might provide additional info and insight. 

 

30526267053_0343cf48f8_o.png 

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Fair enough, but that still leaves us with the retouched poor quality photo's of the car and the possibility (imho likeliness) of rivets and what's behind those rivets.

 

I still hope for a 1/12 or 1/8 Bugatti 35 kit...at least it's well documented, plenty living examples and it's my dream car :think:

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Dear Robin , that´s what  makes our thread different from others ! It´s called research and that´s the fun part ! A well -documented car that still exists is not a great challenge ( besides the required  skills ) Our goal was from the beginning to unravel the mysteries of a car which was destroyed a long time ago.  So we are some kind of scientists and pioneers ! We already found out a lot and we will find more in the future .Even if not all secrets will gret unraveled , our work will be sufficient enough to build realistic models the world has not seen yet .

Many greetings !  Hannes

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May I say; caveat first - my car is about half the size of the Fiat - from the front of the scuttle [where the bonnet joins] to the back of the seats it is one piece of metal. Supported only at the front, then where a bridge piece holds the instrument panel and then an ash frame at the back of the seats; nothing else, its not even attached fully to the floor. It is about 1.25mm thickness, its plenty strong. My car has seen more racing than the Fiat, both track racing and off-road racing so its had enough rough handling for any deficiencies in this construction to show up by now.  It has no second internal skin for support; I have leather covered panels inside by the seats, for driver comfort, they are jammed into place, not mounted directly to the outer bodywork.

My bonnet has rolled wired edges and those are suffcient to make it keep its shape for 86 years; and my bonnet has to come off every time I need to add fuel and oil, never mind the regular cleaning of the spark plugs and the adjustment of the points. The bonnet aluminium is about 0.9mm thick

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On 26/03/2017 at 7:47 PM, Hannes said:

That´s funny ,under " Protar Fiat 806 " I found a 1/24 paper kit of our car at ebay. It costs 10 Dollar , but they dont send it by ship to Germany.

Dear Hannes, 

I have just tried to find this 1/24 paper kit on ebay, but I did not find it. Can you share with me the page, please?

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19 hours ago, Hannes said:

Dear Olivier , still another topic : You said you already ordered this thin brass-sheet . This kind of sheet is very useful for altering plastic parts !  In combination with plastic and super-glue you will get a firm and stable construction, Remember when you had to connect both bodywork´s parts ? Because this sheet is  so thin you could have made an invisible connection with only a little bit of filler , to  get smooth transitions .

I know what I´m talking about , because right now I´m building a new radiator case out of the Italeri´s plastic part. The reason for that is the fact , that my Protar case with some plastic and alu plates has way too thick walls especially at it´s backside. Because at least 2 sections are necessary a good connection is  important .

This sheet really helps a lot to solve these problems ! Of course 0,5 and 1 mm thick plastic plates must be glued on this sheet and the usual  filler-filing -sanding work must be done.

As much as I know , you did not yet change your radiator case so my advice could be helpful for you ! And if you intend to build a scratch radiator , this sheet could be used to show the brass  radiator frame !

Many greetings !  Hannes

Dear Hannes,

I am sure indeed this thin brass sheet will be useful for me. I am not yet 10% sure to use it for the slots under the frame but it is quite probable.

About the radiator case, do you mean the part 7G or the parts 132 and 133D?

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