Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I want to express here (we are on an english forum) all my sympathy after the awful terrorist attack in London. Tonight, we are London. Pity, it is far from being over with this cancer, terrorism from radical islam.

 

Edited March 22, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[CrazyCrank]

6 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

I want to express here (we are on an english forum) all my sympathy after the awful terrorist attack in London. Tonight, we are London. Pity, it is far from being over with this cancer, terrorism from radical islam.

 

I just achieve to read "Le Monde" this evening, and I'm very sad for all British citizens, and for all humen being too.

We live in a wicked  world !

And today morning, I heard that a friend of mine died yesterday..

A very bad day for all of us..

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

About the question of the floor, pity, we don't have any document (except the photo of the Mef, that I post again) to have certainties.

In the lack of them, I admit I have followed Italeri's "assumption"with the wooden floor, adding rivets. Compared with the Mef, I have extended my rivets to the whole floor, considering it would look good and realistic.

Was I right? What is the truth? Big question...

I have asked to Sebastien Faures his opinion on the subject. 

I will make personal research on other contemporary racing cars, but I am afraid we won't be able to know the truth on that point...

Obviously, if the proof was brought that I was wrong, or at least a strong presumption, I would - if possible, if not too late... - come-back on my floor, even if I spent a lot of time on it...

 

Edited March 23, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Sebastien's reply arrived very quickly:

 

Pour être honnête, ça me paraitrait bizarre qu'il y ait du bois dans une voiture aussi "high tech"! A votre place je regarderais comment c'est fait sur les Alfa Romeo, Delage et Talbot contemporaines.

 

Pour la Mefistofeles n'oubliez pas que c'est un bricolage réalisé par un particulier et non une voiture "usine".

 

Bonne soirée,

 

I translate: 

 

To be honest, it would seem to me curious that there is wood in such a "high tech" car!

If I were you, I would try to see how it was on the Delage, Alfa Romeo and Talbot contemporary.

For the Mefisto, don't forget it is a craft made by an individual and not a "factory" car.

 

If only I could find the answer at Torino.... but let's not dream!

 

On the Delage, metal floor:

 

[Hannes]

On drawing 2 we cannot see a bottom panel with openings or some kind of a floor for the driver anymore .The seat cussion seems to be  situated a bit under the frame´s rail ´s upper line.

But this does not mean it was the same in our car ! Don´t forget :weight reduction of 40 kg for the successor !  Hannes

[Hannes]

If I look at photos 1 and 9 with Bordino sitting in the car I could imagine , the height of the seat cussion was about the same as on drawing 2 . If there was a floor , it would have been situated under the frame´s upper level .If a seat´s base would have existed the fairing would make no sense at all ! That shows us again : We cannot trust the kit´s solutions.  I intend to build a small fire-wall too !  Hannes

[sharknose156]

1 hour ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Pour la Mefistofeles n'oubliez pas que c'est un bricolage réalisé par un particulier et non une voiture "usine"

 

exactly my thoughts and honestly - please don't hold it against me -  

i am surprised each time Olivier and Hannes post a photo of the Mef. and use it for reference or comparison when wondering about the 806.

 

totally different animal, totally different period - even a decade for the engine - only the airplane engine and a very small part of the body is Fiat original !!  and not the chassis.

 

so after reading M. S. Saures 's answer to Olivier, the more i am comforted in my opinion that the floor of the 806 must have been metallic.

 

As for oil and leaks etc. in the 'office', there must have been special evacuation holes for that in the corners,

 

perhaps this explains the little rectangles appearing right under the chassis rails, at the floor level, and actually pinpointed once by one of you. This could be the water evacuation in case of rain or washing or oil etc.

[Hannes]

Dear Sam , this could be a good side-effect ! I believe these rectangles are the ends of strips for stiffening the thin bottom panel .Maybe this construction was stable enough  ( maybe in combination with struts and strenghtening sheets ) to carry the oil tank and the seat with it´s driver. If we look at the frame we can see some rivets  outside .Maybe the situation of these rivets can give us hints , what kind of construction hides behind them.  On the other hand : Most of these " rivets " look more like small holes .I guess Olivier was right to show holes instead of rivets when representing the connection between fairing and body .But I don´t have an answer for that .Hollow rivets perhaps ?

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited March 22, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

9 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

i am surprised each time Olivier and Hannes post a photo of the Mef. and use it for reference or comparison when wondering about the 806.

 

Dear Sam,

you are right - except that the Mef is just 3 years younger (1924) than the 806 -. Why did we use this car for reference, as Protar did too when they imagined such a floor on the 806?

Just because it is a Fiat too, a "race car" (not really, I know, it just established a world speed record) and was just 3 years younger, but above all because we don't have any document on the 806 floor.

What surprises me is that, until Robin has expressed doubts about a planked floor, no one - that I know - has expressed the same doubts about a wooden floor. Robin has been in that occasion a visionary, while all up to now - me the first - had been trusting the kit's solution (I would be surprised to see an existing build of the 806 with a metal floor).

Robin, like for the gearbox and for the left tank to increase in height, showed a critical mind that I want to greet here. He arrived very recently on the thread - pity for me who spent so much time on my "probably wrong" floor - but ever brought very interesting ideas.

And now, what will I do?

First, I would like to see if possible the Talbot, Bugatti and Alfa Romeo floors, to get a stronger presumption. If none of them have a wooden floor, I will consider, even if we don't have a 100% certainty, that there is a strong presumption to say there was not a planked wooden floor. And I will modify my floor as a consequence....

9 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

As for oil and leaks etc. in the 'office', there must have been special evacuation holes for that in the corners,

 

perhaps this explains the little rectangles appearing right under the chassis rails, at the floor level, and actually pinpointed once by one of you. This could be the water evacuation in case of rain or washing or oil etc.

here too, you are certainly right, Sam. As the car is opened, in the lack of holes, in case of strong rain (like there was at Monza the 4/09/1927), the car would have been flooded. I don't see the rectangles you mention here. Can you show me please? I would have imagined round evacuation holes (like on boats) more probably than rectangles ones but...

Edited March 23, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

 

 

None of the contemporary racing cars of the Fiat 806 had a wooden floor.

There is this strong presumption that the modern 806 had too a metal floor.

Protar used probably the Mef as reference and were certainly wrong on that point.

I will modify my floor for a metal one.

Thank you again Robin for avoiding me that big mistake, that certainly all modelers did before us...

Edited March 23, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I have removed my rivets, sanded my painted floor (except a very little portion as a blink to my work done) and now, to fill the veinings, I apply Mr Surfacer 1200, whose very flowable consistency is well adapted:

 

[sharknose156]

1 hour ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

I don't see the rectangles you mention here. Can you show me please? I would have imagined round evacuation holes (like on boats) more probably than rectangles ones but...

 

some time ago, one of you published a zoomed-in picture of small rectangles openings exactly where the floor is linked to the chassis railings. Am sorry with all these pages i don t have the time to go through all posts.

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

On top view Drawing 2, Sam?

Edited March 23, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Robin Lous]

2 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Thank you again Robin for avoiding me that big mistake, that certainly all modelers did before us...

I almost feel guilty you have to do all the extra work now. And your wooden floor looked really nice!

 

With all the examples from other period cars I now also think it's fairly safe to assume the 806 had a firewall like any other car.

Hannes mentioned this before (and maybe others...92 pages...I might have overlooked stuff).

Part 121D seems to be a good starting point for this. 

 

Cheers,

 

Robin

[Totally Mad Olivier]

3 minutes ago, Robin Lous said:

I almost feel guilty you have to do all the extra work now. And your wooden floor looked really nice!

You shouldn't, Robin! Thank you for your compliments about my wooden floor. But the most important for me is to be as close as possible from truth, it is a quest, and now I am convinced the 806 had not a wooden floor, It would be a non sense to keep it like that. I just regret none of us, before you, suggested this wooden floor was a wrong way, I could have earned time and energy...

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , on the Alfa Romeo photo you can see more interesting details besides the floor : 1 ) The edges of the bodywork which are folded ( around a wire in our car ) Some pages ago I recommended to show this with tiny strips ( 0.5 / 1 mm ) It looks more convincing and better too imho to show the edges as seen on this photo.Same goes for the fairing!

2 ) : The fairing´s inside  and the part below is painted ! Even if I don´t know it was the case in our car I will do the same .

Don´t forget , some Fiat engineers were hired by Alfa Romeo and some solutions were copied.

Regarding these rectangles Sam was talking about :Remember when I asked you about representing the bottom panel ? You answered you probably will paint with a fine filt-tip pen these interrupted lines , that´s what Sam was talking about . As I said above I believe there were small strips so the bottom panel was not directly connected with the frame . The gaps between those strips could allow water and other liquids ( I don´t suppose Bordino´s wee wee ) to flow out of the car .

Many greetings !  Hannes

[NickD]

Chaps,

 

I know we have covered this ages ago, could even be on the gangshow - did we decide that the top of the radiator grill was the same in the studio shots (photo 2) as the outside shots (4A, 7A and 12). It does not look like that to me. It looks like there is a poor fit on the studio shot compared to the race pics. I can get good alignment on the sides but not at the top where the cowl seems to be further forward in the race than the studio.

 

However, I have just realised that I have ignored 7A till now. It looks excellent now that I have re-discovered it. Maybe that is where the solution lies.

I'd welcome any insight you may have

Nick

[Hannes]

Dear Nick , I think you are right . It seems to be an additional frame so the car looks better for the public eyes .

Even if this means a bit more weight , the car would have looked poor without . If we look at the movies´pics we can see the unpainted car wihout this frame and and the painted car  with a shiny frame. The successor on drawing 2 shows a more aerodynamical  grille frame .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited March 23, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

19 hours ago, Hannes said:

The fairing´s inside  and the part below is painted ! Even if I don´t know it was the case in our car I will do the same .

Dear Hannes,

I am afraid we will never know with certainty if these parts were painted or not. I have chosen not to paint them because on the 805, predecessor, it was not (I posted the photo on this thread). You are right saying they were painted on some of the 806 rivals. 

19 hours ago, Hannes said:

Regarding these rectangles Sam was talking about :Remember when I asked you about representing the bottom panel ? You answered you probably will paint with a fine filt-tip pen these interrupted lines , that´s what Sam was talking about . As I said above I believe there were small strips so the bottom panel was not directly connected with the frame . The gaps between those strips could allow water and other liquids ( I don´t suppose Bordino´s wee wee ) to flow out of the car .

This is very interesting. Thank you, now, I see very well what Sam meant, and I agree, it is very possible (and even quite probable that these strips are water evacuation). How could we represent that? it won't be easy, because the strips are very thin. I admit the painting option is not very satisfying. Maybe little holes with a small drill and then using a blade to connect the holes?

[Totally Mad Olivier]

As far as as I know, it is certainly the first (but not the last...) 806 build with a metal floor... Stainless steel Alclad on a gloss black base...  

 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Robin Lous]

I still see a piece of wood

 

Looks good! More mature, more agressive and more like a racer for sure!

Since I demolished my floor I'm now scratchbuilding a new one from 1mm Evergreen sheet.

On top of it 0,5mm Evergreen sheet plates and a perforated footboard plate (Bugatti 35B inspired) and a vertical "breakwater"plate in front of it. (about 7mm high underneath the pedals).

 

I hope to be able to show more later today.

 

Cheers,

 

Roin

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

2 hours ago, Robin Lous said:

I still see a piece of wood

Yes Robin, I said above I would keep it as a little blink. to the "wood solution" I had done before... But maybe it is not a so good idea...

Personally, I have kept my PE floor, as mentioned above, filling the veinings with Mr Surfacer. This gives a not too smooth surface.

But both solutions are good.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Robin Lous]

Dear Olivier,

It doesn't bother me at all, but I'm afraid it will start to bother you at some point.

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier how to represent the bottom sheet ?  It´s not easy but I thought about a solution with the thinnest  brass sheet you can buy ( about 0.1 mm ) On this sheet small strips will be glued and this construction must get cut out exactly according the frame´s profile . (make a pattern first with cardboard or similar )

The main difficulty is the fact that the openings in front of this sheet are situated too high too !

My solution : I will add plates  on the downside of these openings so they are on the same level as the rest of the bottom panel .

The panel must get painted first before glued to the downside of the car so the openings cannot get filled with paint .The rear end of the bottom sheet will be where this cramp construction is situated ( part 3 A ) so the transition will be invisible .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited March 24, 2017 by Hannes

[Hannes]