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Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds


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Olivier, careful, you have made endless small changes 1 or 2 mm back and forth alterations to the body each time being convinced of the measurement. Perhaps there is a scale issue in your measurements ? perhaps it comes from how you use the computer screen and not a print out ?

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My poster n°1: each photo was impressed on A4 quality paper, then cut to the limits of the car. All photos were placed on a black carboard, just fixed by adhesive tape. 

On my poster n°2, there will be the other photos. 

 

sxuQvq.jpg

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1 hour ago, sharknose156 said:

Olivier, careful, you have made endless small changes 1 or 2 mm back and forth alterations to the body each time being convinced of the measurement. Perhaps there is a scale issue in your measurements ? perhaps it comes from how you use the computer screen and not a print out ?

Dear Sam,

thank you to worry about my build, but, if I was sometimes wrong, especially when I cut the frame at the cockpit level, I was generally right. If not, my comparisons of last days wouldn't be so close from truth. When I have taken the decision to cut my body this morning, because this area was too low, I had thought it was the best solution to make a necessary correction.

When I have cut 1,5 mm of fairing portion, too long, it was the less I could do. At 1/12 scale, I should have cut a little more.

I often took risks with this build, putting myself in danger. But the result is there, with this new photo 28, with care, comparing with other ones, I am sure I am gonna be soon very very close from truth, at least for this essential part that is the body.

If I wanted my wheels, my tail, my bonnets to have the good size, I had no choice, I had to modify the scale. Contrary to Hannes, I would have prefered to keep the 1/12, but imho, it was the best decision. I can increase the lenght of my rear transmission, by adding a piece of rod, I won't change my wheels. 

You see, all what I did was following a logic. But definitely, what a challenge!!

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Dear Olivier , a question : Do you intend to represent the bottom panel ? Because we both used the kit´s panel as a part of the frame , it´s frontal openings are not low enough now  ,in my case  about 0,5 - 1 mm.I´m also not yet sure how it was fixed . There seemed to have been  very flat distance strips .

Many greetings !  Hannes

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Dear Olivier,

 

just incase the body of your 806 has become too fragile, and since i am not building my 806 right now, i can send you the unaltered body of my 806 sitting in my untouched box by mail tomorrow.  

 

This way you can just make the definitive, correct and final alterations on a fresh bodywork.

 

i can always re-order another body from Italeri later on. Italeri responds very well on my Mefisto inquiries.

 

also am not in a hurry, after i finish the Mef. i will build a Tamiya F1 from the 70's before going back to an old timer.

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1 hour ago, Hannes said:

Do you intend to represent the bottom panel ?

Dear Hannes,

I don't know what you call "the bottom panel". I know you ever mentioned that in the thread, and I should have asked you before. Can uou precise, please?

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57 minutes ago, sharknose156 said:

Dear Olivier,

 

just incase the body of your 806 has become too fragile, and since i am not building my 806 right now, i can send you the unaltered body of my 806 sitting in my untouched box by mail tomorrow.  

 

This way you can just make the definitive, correct and final alterations on a fresh bodywork.

 

i can always re-order another body from Italeri later on. Italeri responds very well on my Mefisto inquiries.

 

also am not in a hurry, after i finish the Mef. i will build a Tamiya F1 from the 70's before going back to an old timer.

Dear Sam,

it's very very kind of you! I accept with pleasure, of course. It could be helpful indeed, but over all, it will give me the opportunity to show the difference between the kit's part and mine. It will be funny for me to see the kit's part untouched. I have been working so much on it! If you could join the fairing, it would be great and still more blatantly, but I don't want to abuse of your kindness.

A charge de revanche, comme on dit. Si tu as besoin de quoi que ce soit que je puisse faire pour toi...

 

Very friendly

 

Olivier

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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3 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

Do you have more pictures of the 1927 car ? 

 

Whenever during my Delage research I stumble upon interesting info or a photo on the Fiat, I'll always share that right away. If you were referring to the 1927 Delage, yes I took many pictures; I'll post them in the Delage build topic from time to time. 

 

This reminds me of an interesting subject. Back in November during my initial research for the 806 topic I had used the search terms 'Fiat', 'Delage 15-S-8' and 'Robert Benoist' in conjunction with other terms, but at the time that didn't result in many results pointing to the Fiat. I think that is because both cars never raced each other. Why didn't they?

 

The Fiat took part in the Grand Prix of Milan, a 50 km. race, while the Delage didn't participate in that race. Robert Benoist in his Delage had just won the 500 km. Grand Prix of Italy, held that same day. I read in a 1927 car magazine article that Benoist was tired after the main race and did not want to tire himself any further. Personally I doubt the accuracy of that story. The Delage racing team had four cars at its disposal. Before, three of the cars had participated in the races (Grand Prix of France: 3 cars, Grand Prix of Spain: 3 cars). Why did Louis Delage send only one car to Italy? In my view, mainly to keep costs to a minimum. The 1927 Monza Grand Prix may have been the last Grand Prix for Fiat, but what many people are not aware of is that the 1927 Monza Grand Prix was also the penultimate Grand Prix for Delage. The next race, in England, was the last Grand Prix in which Delage participated. Racing was costly then as it is now and the World Championship title had already been gained. As a Nico Rosberg avant la lettre, Louis Delage did not consider it necessary to repeat that performance. 

 

In line with that I think Delage wanted to protect its racer. Participating in a non-championship race such as the Grand Prix of Milan (which race was won by Bordino in the Fiat 806) would involve unnecessary risks. In my view that could well be the reason the Fiat and the Delage never raced together in one race. That really would have been a battle of titans... no idea who would have won; and unfortunately we'll never know. 

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Dear Olivier , I´m talking about the bottom sheet under the frame ( part 1 G ) We both used it for changing the frame´s rails height,At its frontal end there are openings left and right beneath the gear-box to lead cool air to the tank. These openings are the frontal part of this bottom sheet , it´s rear end  is where the last cross-beam is situated .

If you look closely you will see , this sheet is not directly connected with the frame , there are tiny strips between sheet and frame .

Many greetings !  Hannes

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10 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

In line with that I think Delage wanted to protect its racer. Participating in a non-championship race such as the Grand Prix of Milan (which race was won by Bordino in the Fiat 806) would involve unnecessary risks

 

Yes thats possible and does not contradict what i read somewhere and was also told that there probably was a secret discussion and agreement that each car would enter one of the two different races on that day, so they would both have a chance of wining each a race without pushing each other, since there was not much real competition for them - except these two advanced cars and two star drivers.  

 

The Grand Prix of Italy, the main event, being part of the world championship, important to both Delage and Benoist, it was therefore naturally decided that Delage and Benoist would enter ( and hopefully win ) and not the 806. Also, Fiat was not sure the 806 would last the whole Grand Prix of Italy.

 

And similarly, Bordino would enter and hopefully win the last race ever for Fiat, which he did brilliantly in rain condition, 

being dubbed the Grand Prix of Milan*, satisfying the Tifosi and press** - even possibly and secretly Agnelli 'himself.

 

Although some incredible version of the events related that he read about the Bordino sunday victory in the following day's morning papers. Which i don't believe, because Monza is the turf of Fiat and he would have sbires relating what was happening there and it is not comprehensible that a Fiat would be entered for a complete race week end (!) without him knowing.

 

* am not sure it was a regular yearly race on the calendar

** and anecdotally, the facists who were very nationalistic and very much pro Fiat as we know. 

 

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2 minutes ago, sharknose156 said:

was also told that there probably was a secret discussion and agreement that both cars would enter the two different races on that day, so they would both have a chance of wining each a race without pushing each other, since there was not much real competition for them - except these two advanced cars and two star drivers.  

 

I had not heard of that before, interesting... I agree that the Delage as well as the Fiat probably weren't really pushed to their limits that day. In the documentary you can see that the Fiat had a slow start; what I read about that is that Bordino wanted to save the car as well as he could. After some minutes it must have become clear to him that didn't face any real competition. Probably the same happened with Benoist. There were no Talbots (that company was in financial trouble), there were no Bugattis (don't know why). The only other three cars to survive the 500km. race were two OMs (one of them took second place, passing the checkered flag 23 minutes after the Delage) and one Miller. 

 

That's also why the race results (times) cannot be a basis of fair comparison between both cars.... they were never pushed to the limit. Both the Fiat and Delage engines were capable of extremely high RPMs but I doubt such was ever achieved on that rainy day in September 1927. 

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3 hours ago, Hannes said:

Dear Olivier , I´m talking about the bottom sheet under the frame ( part 1 G ) We both used it for changing the frame´s rails height,At its frontal end there are openings left and right beneath the gear-box to lead cool air to the tank. These openings are the frontal part of this bottom sheet , it´s rear end  is where the last cross-beam is situated .

If you look closely you will see , this sheet is not directly connected with the frame , there are tiny strips between sheet and frame .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Ok Hannes, I see what you mean by "bottom panel" now. But I don't see very well "this sheet not connected directly to the frame" and these "tiny strips". A little drawing, even simple, would be helpful. Are you talking about something you see on photo 28? on another one? When you talk about "cross-beam", we agree that it is parts108 and 109D? One thing is sure, and we fully agree on that, their stands are wrong and must be scratchbuilt.

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3 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

Although some incredible version of the events related that he read about the Bordino sunday victory in the following day's morning papers. Which i don't believe, because Monza is the turf of Fiat and he would have sbires relating what was happening there and it is not comprehensible that a Fiat would be entered for a complete race week end (!) without him knowing.

I agree with you Sam, it seems to me incredible that Agnelli learnt that victory at Monza in his hotel, reading newspapers!

About Bordino, look at his face on photos after the race . He does not look like a champion who has just won a G.P., except on photo 7.

Maybe he feels that for him who had been the love child for Fiat and for Italian tifosi, it is one of the last dances. A sunset. 

He was maybe relieved to have been able to win that race with a car that had caused so many problems during its trials.

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Dear Olivier , the last cross-beam is part 10 B. And the photo where you can see the bottom sheet with the distance strips is photo 1 AA .Just look to the region under the rear frame and you will see what I mean !

Many greetings !  Hannes

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Dear Olivier yes that´s what I mean. I´m not sure but I believe there were aluminium strips for strenghtening the thin bottom sheet.Maybe these strips also had the purpose to let evade hot air from the inside of our bodywork . However there seemed have to been a  bottom sheet under the frame with inlet-openings at it´s front.

On drawing 2 this bottom-sheet  cannot be seen anymore ( maybe one of the weight-reduction measures )

Many greetings !  Hannes

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You see how the difference of language, the communication by words instead of photos and drawings explains misunderstandings! I finally saw what you meant, but first, I was far from that! 

Yes, I had noticed these strips, but I did not intend to reproduce them, except maybe just in "trompe l'oeil", with a graphite pencil or a very fine black color

0,1 mm pen. I admit I did not try to understand what was the function of these strips. It seemed to me they were the low part of the frame.

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I guess, if the bottom sheet would have been connected directly with the frame , the aluminium would have been ripped apart .And the openings at it´s front show us the existence of a under-body sheet  or else they would make no sense.  Hannes

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I think we can say that the order of destruction was taken after Fornaca's death. He was the "Fiat very pro racing manager", beginning of 1928. I did not know this story of supporting race, and once more another engine breaking... Even if the order of destruction is indeed "inexplicable", we can understand that Agnelli was fed up with so many problems...

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One interesting detail I found out when looking at new photo 28 : Look at the line between body and bonnets ! It´s vertical. Under the exhaust pipe this line is slanted !

First of all I believed in an camera distortion effect . But looking at other photos like 1 AA or 2 conviced me : It really is not vertical anymore . On photo 1 this difference was retouched !

 

If you elongate the upper line in to it´s natural direction , the point where it should meet the frame lies before the actual point .

You never stop to learn when looking at that car !

Many greetings !  Hannes

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Thank you Hannes for that interesting comment. I had noticed too this line slightly slanted under the exhaust, but I am not sure it was not slightly slanted on the real car. It is difficult to imagine for me a distorsion at that level, just in front of the camera, coincidentally at the rear limit of the big gap. 

I don't say there is no distorsion on this photo, but I would bet that this line, limiting on its rear part a big gap - that does not exist on photo 1 - was slanted there. Look at photo 2 and even more photo 3. Of course, the angle of view is not the same, but don't you feel the line becomes a bit more slanted under the exhaust too? We would have the same distorsion at the same place? No, for me, no doubt, and I will represent this line slanted under the exhaust on my model.

 

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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