Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) A little topic about the Bordino tip. We have different angles of that tip following the docs. Which one is the right one? Photo 1: obtuse angled... Photo 2: as far as I can see, right angle. Photo 3: acute angle... Photo 4: right angle. Drawing 2, with longer tail, the evolution imagined by Massimino for the 806: slight acute angle... Drawing 5: right angle. My conclusion: Personally, my Bordino tip will be right angled, requiring a slight modif because up to now, I have a slightly acute angle. I am quite confident in photo 4. It is right angled also in photo 8B. Edited February 8, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph add 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 On photo 1 and 2 we cannot see the tip at all because it´s hidden behind the curved panel . On photo 3 there´s a foresighting effect , so photo 4 seems to be more realistic and photo 8 also could be helpful . If judging or realizing forms the thinking in cross-sections is the first rule for sculpturing works . Many greetings ! Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 9 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said: Photo 1: obtuse angled... Dear Olivier, on my screen it looks like this angle is too open / the upper blue line is too open and eats into the tip a little ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) I modified my seat fairing by cementing an alu 0,3mm foil on my piece. I will probably use 2mm masking tape for the edge of that fairing, whose adhesive will have to be improved with cyano. Very soon, paint step... After the many hours spent on that piece, it will be the moment of truth... Edited February 8, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 That looks spot on mate.......I lke it lots! Cheers, H 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 23 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said: A little topic about the Bordino tip. We have different angles of that tip following the docs. Which one is the right one? Glad to see you picked photo 4 - for a moment I thought you might pick something else. Photo 4 is the only one I have found that is not distorted in this region. As for the painting, who knows what source the artist used. Makes me think we should have a quality statement for each of the photos on the introduction so people know about known faults. Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I must still work on my seat fairing shape. If some aspects are good (height and front part, supporting the seat upholstery), the rear part is wrong, as this comparison shows: 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Dear Sam, here is the enlargement of photo 1 without blue line. IMHO, it confirms we have here an obtuse angle. But anyway, I think - with Nick- that the best doc for this area is the photo 4. And on this one, the angle is clearly right. I have modified my Bordino tip that has now this right angle. 15 hours ago, sharknose156 said: Dear Olivier, on my screen it looks like this angle is too open / the upper blue line is too open and eats into the tip a little ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) In my opinion the tails lenght on original drawing 2 is correct but the height is different This means , it´s just a different top line imho. The bottom line can be seen as an elongation of the frame´s bottom line imho. Many greetings Hannes Edited February 9, 2017 by Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Not much going on in our thread , but I think , that´s normal .After these giant efforts regarding research many clouds vanished and a clearer picture now can be seen . Its also much clearer for me how to proceed with my construction. This week I buildt an assembly cradle so I can compare my model with photogrammetrics , drawings and photos and already have the right angles and heights. If you look at the frame , you will see it also goes into a slightly upwards direction towards the rear´s end . If your model does not lie on a cradle it is more difficult to judge angles on photos . The cradle allso allows the provisional inclusion of wheels and tires and this makes comparisons easier too . Currently my bodywork ´s rear gets a different shape ,I already shifted the openings for the rear axis and elongated the tail´s end for a Bordino tip . I was wrong imho to cut the tail´s end in my Protar scale and had to correct it now . There are a lot of minor correction and adaption works too ,if these works are done , I will post some very nice pics , I promise ! Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 I still drop in to catch up on what is going on here but now that you guys are into the details of your builds there is not much for me to contribute. So I just read and watch. I look forward to seeing these models all finished 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 I am still working (when I have a little time) on my seat fairing. It needed to be increased in height, what is done now. The next thing I want to do before painting my body is modify my right side louvres, whose I was not very satisfied. On another hand, I go on thinking my tail has very nearly correct dimensions. It is in coherence with all photos we have. I totally respect Hannes opinion but I don't subscribe to his point of view saying the tail has the good lenght on original Drawing 2. Imho, it would mean all our photos are wrong. I don't want to come in a new debate on this subject, I will go on in my direction and Hannes will follow his one. So, our builds will be different, what is logical if you consider how difficult it was for us to have certainties on such a challenge. Roy, how was the Retromobile show? I suppose great and very exciting with the Delage.... All the best to all Olivier 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Olivier, Just remember most of our photos are wrong when it comes to the tail! Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Dear Nick , you are right ! And there are only two photos where we can see the tail´s end , on photos 3 and 8 imho.Even photo 4 does not show the end correctly because the shifted angle . Foresighting effects are underestimated imho , especially when the angle is minimal . If you look at photos 1 and 2 for instance. We could believe , we can see the end of the body. But we don´t ! It´s just the outline of the curved panel we see and not the Bordino tip .. It´s interesting to see how this outline gets delayed by changing the photographer´s point of view only some degrees ! On photo 1 this outline lies outside the right rear wheel , on photo 2 inside the wheel ! The best comparisons can be made , if the wheels are already at their right positions imho. Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) And that's without the distortion on the studio shots - there must be some because in photo 1 the rear wheel is not round! Just checked back. Photo 3 is possibly subject to the same distortion - Roy played with removing the distortion some time ago. Photo 8 is two photos stuck together so the tail is right but pretty much nothing else is! In the end I used photo 4, even though as you say the angle is not ideal. Photo 14 - would be great - long distance should be little distortion. Unfortunately can't see the tail because a wheel is in the way Photo 24 - might be good if we had a high version - but it looks a little strange. Still it would be boring if we knew for sure. What would we talk endlessly about Edited February 10, 2017 by NickD Thought of something else to say 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 As I said above, I have increased the volume of the seat fairing, by adding LC Revotek resin on the alu I had cemented before. The edge was made of 0,25 mm thick plastic card. I will add a few rivets on it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 Rétromobile was... ridiculously large. Think twice the size of Telford IPMS. I will write a brief impression in the Delage topic. Took several trillions of photos and videos of chassis #1 and #3 and still I realize that I'll need more along the way. Met Daniel Cabart, bought his book on the 15-S-8, had it autographed and learned from him that no blueprints of the cars have survived. After that I made another couple of million photos just to be sure. Then I met Mr Scott George of Revs Institute, which was an honour and a pleasure. All the time I was looking for Fiat 806 and/or 1927 Grands Prix related stuff in vintage 1927 magazines and such, but to no avail. I would recommend anyone who has the chance to visit Rétromobile, you still have Saturday and Sunday. Or maybe next year. It's an overwhelming experience... 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 (edited) One more time, comparisons with photos (sorry, I do with what I have...) and, anyway, I don't think distorsion is so important that we can't use our photos for comparisons (with care, of course): Photo 1:comparison with our photo 1: now, the fairing is OK, the seat fairing too, the body height too. The louvres (not yet opened, I wanted to check before) are correctly situated. However, it seems that a few mm are missing on the tail portion. Photo 2: comparison with our photo 7A: I am glad with my left side cockpit shape, on which I have been working a lot. Photo 3: comparison with our photo 3: 1- fairing OK 2- body extension under fairing should be a bit lower but I consider it acceptable 3- seat fairing must be extended a bit more frontally to receive the seat upholstery 4- Distance between louvres and seat fairing OK 5- Here, problem: the body opening for the rear transmission should be more frontally situated (37 instead of 45). It seems that I must increase the lenght of this portion of at least 4 mm. Though, I am not sure I will add a portion to the tail. I will see after all other corrections done. 6- This portion should be more flat 7- The rivets are maybe still a little too big, but they are acceptable 8- The notch is still a bit too frontal. I know some of you consider this part of the tail is distorted and so, we are not sure. But we have no other photo of this portion (on photo 4, it is hidden by the wheel) 9- My rear louvres are a bit too short. Edited February 11, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph add 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 It´s looking good , dear Olivier only the sheet for the instrument panel is a bit too high imho . Now we have a similar fate : correction works all the time ! Tomorrow I´m going to show some pics too and I hope , the sun will shine ! Have a good time ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 I agree with you Hannes, this sheet is still too high. Though, I am not sure I will correct it, it is not simple. Do you have a suggestion? (I recall it is made of 0,5 mm thick alu). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 (edited) Dear Olivier sorry for my late reply , I was very tired and fell asleep...It´s difficult to find a solution. In my eyes your body panel on the left side is too high. This means,the upper line of the body seems to rise . As I said above , you must think in cross-sections. The body ´s cross-section is the top of an U and this form must get continued along the topline of the body seen from the side and the two outlines seen from above . This sounds simple , but it helps a lot if you want to find the right shape for your body . Nick´s wire-frames are very helpful regarding this topic. If I have to make a more complicated form as a sculptor , a human body for instance , I also must know the horizontal cross-sections besides anatomical knowledge. Of course every human body is different , but the principles of the cross-sections stay the same . I think , the main reason why your heights don´t yet fit , lies within this top-line .The line of the body after the seat is too low imho ,so I had to add a lot of filler to get it higher at my model . This also can be seen vice versa : The U is too high , where your fairing is situated :so lowering could be a good idea . And last but not least the point where the left fairing´s end meets the body could be too high and should get lowered . I have to fight with problems too but I hope , I already solved some of the fundamental issues . I´ll post some pics tomorrow , so we could discuss several aspects. I hope , I could help a bit ! Many greetings ! Hannes Edited February 11, 2017 by Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) The assembly cradle now gave me the opportunity to show a little display.I used my old Protar wheels with the Mef´s tyres . Of course I will respoke my wheels at a much later time and will make a scratchbuild of the seat .I like the green color , so my future seat will get a green coat made out of goat suede . This way the Italian national colors will be united in my model . I made this display not only for your pleasure and motivation , but also for my own comparisons . I´m aware , some minor aspects still need to be altered , but I´m content with my general design. Next steps will be some minor alterings regarding body and radiator case , creation of a removable firm connection between body and frame and finally alterings of the bonnets and adaption works. Many greetings ! Hannes Edited February 12, 2017 by Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Magnificent work Hannes! Such a sexy little machine! Cheers, H 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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