Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier I wonder why it´s so quiet in our thread ! I hope noone is demotivated , frustrated or angry for some reasons ! It is possible to build this wonderful car and of course I´m willing to show techniques if there are requests : And you already showed a lot of brilliant work so in my opinion there should be interest enough to do similar.

Regarding my own construction , I said from the beginning , I will go a different way and trust my eyesight and my instincts more than any drawing .

There are some reasons for that .

One is the fact that the wheel´s ´s sizes including altered Mef´s tyres suit way better to my construction compared with the Protar tyres imho. The Protar tyres were too small too when the kit was buildt oob in my opinion . And the wheels itself are oversized when building a somewhat smaller version according our drawings imho .

There are still other reasons for my decision . And of course everybody can decide which way to go  ! It´s not an easy build , I´m aware of that : And it´s not a matter of weeks to do it but months or even a year or two . But it´s one of the last challenges when using a kit and not doing complete scratchbuilds like Propeller does :

Having said that I want to inform you regarding the plans for my frame :

I will change the distance between the rails a bit by adding two short tubes to part 10 B (about 3 mm ) and adding 2 1 mm thick plates  to parts 7 B and 5 B .

The side  panels  of the body already are a bit slanted by simple bending measures .

I will remove the rear suspension ´s pin like you did and delay it ca 4 mm backwards with small scratchbuilds : The cramp construction under the bottom sheet will get delayed too .

 I´ll also remove the two backward parts of this snap-in construction and replace it with scratchbuilds. Of course all the wrong rivets need to be removed .

The changing of the frame´s height will be done similar as your construction by integrating the thick bottom sheet as a part of the frame and adding strips to the frontal part .

But I will also add strips to the frame´s upper side , so I can lower the whole bodywork about 3 mm :This way I will get a flatter appearance of the whole car´s shape :

There will be more measures regarding the frame , but these are the first and most important steps :

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Roy vd M.]

5 minutes ago, Hannes said:

Dear Olivier I wonder why it´s so quiet in our thread ! I hope noone is demotivated , frustrated or angry for some reasons !

 

Calm after the storm of cumulations of search results I think. Personally I am very busy at work and during the hobby time I have I'm reading a lot in preparation for scratchbuilding the Delage. For that I use the two books of Gerald Wingrove as well as Propeller's thread on the Talbot. All kinds of information are collected in a 'scratchbuild knowhow document' so that maybe one day I can try to do what they have been able to do in a hopefully non-embarrassing attempt. At the same time I've been trying to learn working on the lathe. It's harder than I had expected it to be, so I'll need lots of practice there. 

 

Meanwhile I'm following the Fiat thread and I always look forward to seeing updates on your and Olivier's inspiring builds. 

[harveyb258]

Hi guys!

 

It is quiet, isn't it? I'm missing my fix of new info! Having said that, I'm really enjoying following your build reports...great progress, our dreams are slowly coming to life. I'm itching to get properly stuck-in to this project, but I must finish the Cooper!

 

Cheers, H

[CrazyCrank]

I must finish my Bugatti's chassis before beginning the 806

[Hannes]

[sharknose156]

@Olivier de St Raph

 

Dear Olivier are you using 0.9 mm rivets for the back ? isn't this a little big considering the primer and paint ? 

Edited January 23, 2017 by sharknose156

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Hello to all, I will reply to your today's posts but first, here is Paul last sending: the blueprints. Pity, as I expected, they are the same than the one we ever had. It would have been extraordinary to have blueprints of the 806 we are building, but these ones must have been destroyed with all the racing materials.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

16 hours ago, Hannes said:

Dear Olivier I wonder why it´s so quiet in our thread ! I hope noone is demotivated , frustrated or angry for some reasons !

Dear Hannes I was thinking exactly the same. And in the same time, it is normal, that, as said Roy, it is a little the calm after the storm... If you consider the 42 pages in the Gangshow, and then the 62 pages in this one, it is normal that things become more calm. If you add that Roy is working on his Delage, training with his lathe, CC is working on his Bugatti, VT is probably working on his figure, Sam is still on his Mef etc., you understand the lower activity on the thread...

It has not only drawbacks for me: after my travel in USA, my influenza who made me very tired, I need to go on again with my build. I had initially the goal it to be over in february, and it is obvious that it won't be ready before april or may. And all the time I spend on translations, posting pics, reading posts, is taken on my build, as I can't stop my pro activity and I have to find a balance with other activities if I want to avoid divorce with my dear little wife!

But be sure I won't give up and I will go on posting and showing my progress.

I will come back on the questions about the chassis soon...

All the best

 

Olivier

Edited January 24, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
Add

[Totally Mad Olivier]

11 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

Dear Olivier are you using 0.9 mm rivets for the back ? isn't this a little big considering the primer and paint ? 

Dear Sam,

it's a question I have asked me. But:

1) I don't intend to apply any primer, I use the True metal as primer.

2) my paint coat will be as thin as possible

3) the effect created by the application of True Metal on the rivets gives the impression they are bigger than what they are really.

That said, maybe the choice of 0,7 or 0,8 mm would have been better...

I will think about it and, if they are definitely too big, I will replace them (it would't be the first time I redo something on this build )

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
add

[sharknose156]

i think personally i will go for 0.8 MM

 

0.7 is a big jump. 

 

on the thread going slow; personally i did not have this impression. Hannes sent us great pics and drawings and you did a fantastic work on the frame and both of you had very interesting exchanges.. for me it was more like watching a very interesting debate.

 

Bonne Chance chers Olivier et Hannes, i am very impressed with your comments, build results and observations.

 

Am sorry the blueprints are not exactly what we expected , but the quality is excellent.

 

i will reproduce this on a calque paper, merge it into one and print a large blueprint for framing and hanging on a wall.

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2017 by sharknose156

[NickD]

Olivier/Hannes et al,

 

I have of course been following developments with interest and have been impressed with the progress.

 

Personnally, still playing in Blender. Must really get back to the photo-alignment but I got a bit distracted. Did see a very nicely built oob 806 at the Bolton IPMS show yesterday. It was good to see the model for real for once, so much smaller than the Mef. It does look very different from the one in the photos. Pity the kit builders did not do much research.

 

One thing on your builds.

 

Hannes, I saw you comment on liking to compare to photos rather than drawings. From your pictures you clearly have a good eye, I am not sure my eyes are as good. This will probably not be news to you guys, but I would continue to urge a little caution. Having spent weeks looking at these photos, they generally seem to be optically good but they are not orthographic so perspective and forshortening are present. Also the studio photos seem to have been taken with a camera that definitely has distortion on the left hand edge. In short, gauging proportion may be OK if done with care but focal length messes with the geometry in subtle difficult to spot ways.

 

If it were me I would use a scaled version of the drawing Roy generated, it seems to be really close and a lot easier to use for most of the car. The radiator grill is the main problem area. The frame seems to be good so I would use the drawing to confirm lengths (scaled from wheebase = 2.4m) and positions of brackets etc.I think the results are likely to be closer than trying to use an uncorrected photo.

 

Hope that is of interest

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

[Hannes]

Dear Nick you are right to be cautious : Luckily we have much more pics now as we had before our thread :This circumstance makes it easier to judge the foresighting and frogeye - effects ( like the radiator case on photo 7 ).  I´ll try to keep the construction open for changes as long as possible .It´s like a sculpture ,you have a picture of that subject in your imagination  , but sometimes all components fall into place at a later time .Very often slight changes make the difference !

So I´ll listen to your advice and stay open for new aspects :  Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I agree with you, Nick, and, personally, I try to use both Drawing 2 generated and photos. And in fact, I don't see so many differences between both... Of course, it would have been great if Paul had provided us the good blueprints (I mean the ones of the car we build and not a later version, with little changes).

This work to get the good shapes is very long and difficult, and I learnt a lot with it. Not trusting to much my eyes, be careful with what seems to be the true, etc.

Yesterday morning, I have been working on the proportions in the vertical direction:

 

Notice that I made this work on an "old" photo I made (p.35 of this thread), on which I studied then the proportions horizontally. I had not yet cut my body at the cockpit level, whiwh is, so, too long...

It seems that:

- even if I had ever cut between 4,5 and 5 mm of my body in height, it is still a bit too height. Take care, these are not mm, just a relation of proportions.

I think I should decrease this height of maybe around 1mm, and then make a new check.

- Hannes is right, the cramp construction should be more backward, around 3 mm IMHO. Doing this requires still a lot of job, not sure to do it...

- my seat fairing should go down more than what it does.

It would be interesting to put the wheel and the exhaust on the build and see what it gives with them.

 

On Sam question about  rivets size, I have cheched on the Mef's photos. There are different rivets sizes, but I think we can consider the 806 ones on photo 3 are   

a little the same than the 4 ones on this photo, between the X-D and 7117 inscriptions. If it is so, I agree with Sam, 0,7 would be too small, and probably 0,8 mm would be the best choice, but 0,9 would be maybe acceptable. I am gonna make a painting test and will show you the result...

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
add

[Totally Mad Olivier]

One other point: Hannes suggested that the rear leaf springs should be shorter in lenght. I have checked on Drawing 2 and compared at same scale (I recall for that, I must have 200 mm on my drawing 2 between the center of rear and front axle). I get 78,5 mm lenght for the rear leaf springs. And if I measure them on my build (the kit's one, I did not modify them in lenght), I get 75 mm. So, if I refer to drawing 2, they should not be shorter but a bit longer. But I recall the tail is longer on D2, and this fact maybe required to have longer springs. That's why it is a pity that we don't have the good blueprints. Personally, until now, in the lack of certainty, I will not modify my springs lenght.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
Add

[sharknose156]

Yes dear Olivier, the Mef has several sizes of rivets as you point out. 

it was not made at the Fiat workshop so i would not compare it to the fabulous 806.

 

Personally am very happy with the blue prints as a framed picture.

We even have the name of the designer etc. and it makes for a good piece of memorablia.

 

The gasoline tank is not reproduced though and the rivets we are talking about remain a 'semi-mystery"

[Totally Mad Olivier]

You are right, Sam, but when I say the rivets in photo 3 must have the same size than these 4 ones, it's a visual perception. I have sanded with care my rivets to decrease the round effect and I have applied a coat of X7 Tamiya enamel paint thinned with X20 Tamiya. I let dry and I post the result...

About the blueprints sent by Paul, sure it is a very beautiful testimony! I just regret we can't have absolute certainty because the ones of the car as we build, done in 1925 or 1926, have definitely been pitifully thrown away...

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Hello to all,

it made me funny to use my airbrush again. With all this amazing reshape work, I hadn't been using it for a long time!

The test shows:

1) I like the paint and I confirm that choice for my 806. It is the X7 Tamiya enamel, that is not easy to find in France because it is not exported. You can't judge the result on this photo, that does not correspond to the reality. And even me, I can't have yet a precise idea of the final result with this coat that does not cover very well.

2) I have used the X20 Tamiya enamel thinner that gives a slightly gloss finish that I like. If you want a more glossy finish, you can use a Lacquer thinner (Tamiya, fe) but I think it is not the good choice for our car.

3) My rivets, as Sam suggested, are too big. I wonder if I will use 0,7 or 0,8 mm. I am afraid 0,8 mm are still a little big (not a big difference with 0,9)

4) I must fill and sand more the joint of tail section, that remains a bit visible. 

 

[Roy vd M.]

I agree that the rivets seem to be a bit too large. 

 

Are you not going to prime the model before painting?

[Totally Mad Olivier]

No Roy, I want to have as primer the True Metal silver, that creates an effect of metal look, and that is much less thick than any primer. I will just have to take a lot of care with masking tape (for the numbers, fe), because the paint on the True Metal is quite fragile. The masking tape adhesive will need to be decreased.

[Roy vd M.]

That is interesting!

 

First where I don't quite agree, that's the assessment that primer is always thick. Try Alclad Grey Microfiller & Primer, to be thinned with either Alclad thinner or (as I do myself) Mr Hobby thinner. That primer gives a great thin layer. It doesn't have to fully cover the body, if it provides grip that's all you need. 

 

Furthermore I am not convinced this Fiat had a 'metallic red' body color. Wouldn't it be flat red? I'd like to know your thoughts on this.

 

What is especially interesting to me is your method of creating a metal look. Till now I had not thought of a method to realistically model metal paint, because the bits of metal in true metallic paint wouldn't be scale-true if used on model cars. Many have tried and failed, in my view. Your method is new to me and would certainly be worth a try for those who want to apply a paint that resembles metallic paint. 

[sharknose156]

Dear Olivier

 

i think you are definitely on the right track with the color.

i can see on my screen a slight metallic 'feel' and 'taste' going through the flat paint as in the Mef and older cars.

 

the car is supposed to be freshly painted for the race. 

if you were reproducing a 'barn found' then it would be far less 'metallic feel going through' because of the weathering of both the metal underneath and the flat paint over it. 

 

As for the priming, i have not primed all of the Mef. either and i am very happy with the results.

 

IMHO the original Fiat was in aluminium and then painted over with the Italian red. no primer. this is a racing car and the weight is very important.  paint need to last until the start of the race. What happens after the race starts is not important bar winning.

 

AK interactive, Gravity colors claim they reduced the metal pigments to scale. 

You can play so much with the AK Interactive metallic patina and smoothness, sprayed or applied with a brush that IMHO the effect is very close scale.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by sharknose156

[Black Knight]

Something on the paint; lead was always added as a binder to paint, but in 1917 a shortage of lead, caused by its use in munitions during the Great war, caused paint makers to start using aluminium as the binder in paints. Aluminium in paint gives it a slight metallic sheen.

The shortage of lead affected all European countries except the UK and lasted until around the late 1920s/early 1930s.

[sharknose156]

@Black Knight

 

very good info thank you. 

did not post war cars and right until the 60's ( not racing cars ) but sportscars, GT's etc. have a dark red primer under their final color almost reddishbrown ?

[Black Knight]

I don't know anything about that.

Nearly all the cars I've known have been repainted in their history, or if still in original paint I can't see the primer.

Others which I have seen stripped back had special acid primer on aluminium bodies, this primer was was a yellow/green. Or on fabric bodies a coloured dope was used.

 

Just a thought on that; acid primer is needed to keep cellulose based paint on aluminium metal work, otherwise it can peel off in sheets as soon as its dry. But; aluminium added to paint keeps it on without the acid primer.

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier the comparison photo from page 35 shows the problems when building a smaller version . There is not enough space under the bonnets for the exhaust pipes and the parts below them .

Even if the frame was altered ,the bonnets still would be too large for the exact scale .That´s one of the reasons I decided to work with a somewhat bigger scale :It´s difficult , I know...

 

Two other important issues :

It would be very nice , if Pauld could send us a high-res version of that article with the Bordino pic :It´s important , because there´s an improved version of photo 4 with more informations regarding the car´s left side .

Mr Rogliatti said in his article , he would own all construction drawings . I can´t imagine , only drawing 2 was ment by that . Maybe his heirs know something about this or a foundation exists .

Mr. Rogliatti was a very close friend with Enzo Ferrari and a famous motorsport journalist in Italy :  Maybe we can find out more .

It also would be nice , if the pic of the last remaining part of the engine was published , because it´s the only physical connection with the 806 that´s left .

Many greetings !  Hannes