Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Totally Mad Olivier]

11 minutes ago, Hannes said:

Dear Olivier ,now you elongated the frame .In my opinion there should be gaps now at the frontal beginning of your body , or not? If you want to close these gaps you need to add material. This supporting frame should help to fix these plastic plates

Ok Hannes, now I see what you mean. What you call "plates" is what I call plastic card. In fact, the gaps are not so important. I will do the necessary. Thank you ... and thank you for your good spirit  I fully agree with you, life is too short...

[sharknose156]

Dear Olivier,  

 

Mutual respect is the basis for any discussion. If it is absent then, no place for discussion. I would even say good riddance when there is no respect. Rudeness stems from insecurity, it is a personal problem.

 

It is a great joy to be able to exchange with all of you on this thread.

 

This is a free forum, everyone is free to join or not, isn't it ? 

 

let's focus on our passion; scale modeling beautiful cars and take the challenge, embrace the challenge, and finish what we start.

Edited January 17, 2017 by sharknose156

[Roy vd M.]

Hopefully the moderators of this forum will allow me this one personal and off-topic post. I promise this will be my only one and hope it will solve things.

 

Sharknose you've been saying bad things about me in this thread for two weeks now.

 

I have ignored those remarks every single time. I didn't even defend myself against your allegations, although they hurt me, I think they are untrue and they may affect how people look at me (although they didn't hear my side of the story). But today you have said some things, me being disrespectful and rude and so on, that I think go too far. It's as if you want me out of this thread for good and you will badmouth me until I am fully gone. Just because of one single PM from me, and one PM from you. If I were rude in my PM I don't think it was any worse than you were in yours. I don't want to go in detail, let's assume for the sake of argument that we were both in the wrong and equally badly.

 

Please ask yourself what exactly is your purpose of this continuous verbal assault. I tried to switch this bad energy into positive energy and start the Delage project. I did not verbally assault you in any way. I did not badmouth you in any way. I left quietly, for the sake of this research being continued as usual. But still, several times during the last two weeks you did so with me. I wonder, did I deserve that? And mainly, why are you burning all this energy this way?

 

I kindly request that, while we apparently cannot be friends anymore -probably due to a misunderstanding-, you just stop the personal remarks? I think I have a right to be in this topic that I started myself and to which I actively contributed (for which you thanked me several times as I recall). 

 

One more thing. I never wanted to be disrespectful to anyone and I do hope that the followers of this thread, who know my way of communication, will be surprised that you even make the claim that I did. Of course they don't know everything said on PM but even there I fail to understand what you mean. It may be a matter of language barrier. 

 

But if at any point I was disrespectful to anyone in this thread, including you Sharknose, then I'd like to apologize for that now. Furthermore I am also always open for a personal talk per PM about any issue. 

 

Hopefully we need not continue this discussion in this thread that was meant for researching and scratchbuilding the Fiat 806 and I hope you will agree with most that I said in this post. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by Roy vd M.

[Hannes]

Now we know ,the radiator case of our model  should have a width of about 4 cm. .Even if the whole case was made a bit smaller , the minimal width would be about 3,7 cm imho.

In my opinion maybe the engineers of that time had a similar problem. I could imagine the very fist version of the pre-race car had this radiator case according drawing 1.

The engine therefore could have been more in the car´s center , so the cam fairing of the right bonnet made sense .

Maybe the engineers discovered this massive overheating problem soon after the first test runs and decided to install a  gigantic radiator.

Of course the frame had to be widened where this new cooler case was situated ( and so the part behind ) . The only "proof " I have is the circumstance , that the right bonnet´s cam fairing was completely useless after that .

I´d like to hear your opinions regarding my theory !  Many greetings !  Hannes

 

[Roy vd M.]

Hannes, the proof you found (the bonnet's cam fairing being useless after their work) is not convincing to me, as in the case described by yourself it would have been an easy task to remove that fairing and/or to replace it with flat metal. I haven't read anything about the chassis ever having been widened, which would have been a massive operation. Also I think there are too many discrepancies in Drawing 1 for it to be taken seriously as a contemporary creation. I still think that Drawing 1 was made by Protar as a blueprint for their kit to be made. We now know that Drawing 2 was in fact a blueprint (showing intended improvements to the car) and it differs so much from Drawing 1 that the value of Drawing 1, in my view, has dropped to zero as regarding history of the car itself. To support that, Drawing 1 closely resembles the Protar kit. Look at the peculiarities where the kit and Drawing 1 both differ from the car and Drawing 2: the front wheels are both perpendicular to the ground. The manual crank is, both in kit and Drawing 1, along the centerline of the car. The body shape isn't near as slender and aerodynamic as the car was. Besides, we haven't seen any pre-1970s articles or books featuring Drawing 1. 

 

This is of course my opinion and I respect it if you will keep to yours. 

 

As I mentioned earlier somewhere in this thread, probably the first or second page when we were talking about the offset crank, I think the right camshaft raising was there either for aerodynamics (not sure if the engineers at that time were conscious of symmetry being important for that) or for the same reason why there were four funnels on Titanic although only was 'fake' (=did not function): beauty and a bit of splendour. I think it would be wrong to assume that these cars were designed with the sole focus on speed and reliability... I think beauty was also relevant, albeit not the most important factor. Fiat was still a company selling cars and for sure they wanted to get their fans excited about the cars and the Fiat brand. 

 

I get this idea from my study on the Delage. In an article dated 1927 it was said that "Louis Delage again wanted something beautiful, something impressive, something fast". Delage making more exclusive cars than Fiat did, the four 15-S-8 cars were immaculately manufactured. What really surprised me was that the engine block was entirely covered by engine turned swirls like you sometimes see on vintage firewalls or dashboards. Why would they do that? It must have been an enormous task applying that to the entire engine, into curves and crevices. Although there could have been more reasons I think one of the most important reasons would have been the looks of the engine, shining and yelling 'I am powerful' at everyone admiring it. 

 

The Fiat was a beautiful car, probably more beautiful than the Delage or the Talbot was. I do think that wasn't necessarily all a coincidence. People usually find symmetry attractive. As a fan of architecture I personally admire the asymmetrical ideas and constructions of the art nouveau style, because it was a whole new idea (end of the 19th century!). All the styles before, renaissance, gothic architecture, classicism, all the neo styles of the 19th century, they were all based on the principle of symmetry. Some easy to visualize examples out of an endless list: Notre Dame de Paris, White House in Washington DC, St. Paul's in London. It's pleasing to the eye. And that was, I think, what those responsible for the creation of the Fiat 806 were after (beside, perhaps, aerodynamics). 

 

By the way I think in the end it doesn't matter too much what were the reasons, because we (almost) know for sure that the right cam cover raising had no function. 

 

 

On another note, as promised I will share any and all sufficiently relevant research findings encountered in the Delage project. An article from a car magazine of 1943 (!) to be found here, contains this bit of information on the Fiat:

 

Quote

At the same time Fiats made their sole appearance with a 1.5-litre car intended for Grand Prix racing. This was in the Milan Grand Prix, and the car was not the 2-stroke which had been previously tested, but a remarkable 12-cylinder model with two crankshafts geared together and a bore and stroke of 50 x 63 mm. This engine developed about 160 h.p., and it put up a lap speed of 96.56 m.p.h. This was over two miles faster than the best speed of the Delage (94.1 m.p.h.), but the latter was not pressed and was running in a long race, whereas the Milan affair was over a short distance only. Both speeds were far below the 2-litre lap record of 104.24 m.p.h., whereas at Montlhery the 1.5-litre Delage was slightly faster than the 2-litre cars.

 

This last remark is new to me, although I had already theorized the Delage to not be as fast as it could due to it being way better than all other cars. I had not realized the difference would be so great. On the other hand, to me this doesn't prove that the Delage was necessarily faster than the Fiat, because also Bordino wasn't racing at full speed. This is made clear in contemporary literature and also the start of the race as can be seen in the documentary. So which was the faster car? We will probably never know. The Delage had 10HP more than the Fiat, but the Fiat had a sturdier chassis. Then again, the Fiat had problems with the front wheel and the engine... although it is nice to theorize about these things, until the intact Fiat 806 is found and restored, probably somewhere in Florida as the jewel-like finding of the blueprints were also found there, we won't know the answer. 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

8 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

But if at any point I was disrespectful to anyone in this thread, including you Issam, then I'd like to apologize for that now. Furthermore I am also always open for a personal talk per PM about any issue. 

Thank you Roy, I appreciate a lot that you shut up your ego here and apologize. I must say sometimes, myself, I fell with you "he's getting on my nerves", while most of the time, you were very kind and respectful. 

All of us made big efforts (especially you) to bring what he could for our quest, and it is maybe - with the pbs of language, indeed - a bit normal that, sometimes, we flip out...

I hope Sam (stop calling him Issam, please) will accept your apologize and we will all turn the page. Of course, you have your place in your thread!!

 

All the best 

Edited January 18, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
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[Roy vd M.]

Naming removed (I didn't mean any disrespect, on the contrary; everybody in this thread calls each other by their real names but I see now that I was the only one to use Sharknose's real name here and earlier in the thread... I amended both posts). If you'll now amend it in your own post it isn't mentioned in the thread anymore.

 

As for apologies, from my side that is never a problem. If I was wrong I will admit it (and where two fight, there are usually two to blame). If there are miscommunication I wil apologize for my part in that. I sent Sharknose a PM and hope we'll solve our issues. I even don't mind not receiving an apology from him, although I'd appreciate if he listened to my side of the story just as I will listen to his side of the story. For me the most important thing is that we can go on doing what we did and that is enjoying the quest for info about this lovely car (as far as I am concerned, being to check on the thread and share my Delage findings insofar relevant for the Fiat). Everything else, personal differences, should be less important. It's still just a hobby and we should all enjoy that.

[sharknose156]

@Roy vd M.

Apology accepted.

 

I woukd like to thank Olivier for his usual gentlemanly nature and efforts.

 

As for private messages i have left everything transparent on the PM thread and no behind the scenes communications.

 

Am only interested in moving on to scale modeling and sharing this passion decently.

 

So no further ado

Edited January 18, 2017 by sharknose156

[Hannes]

Maybe we should ask Italeri itself about drawing 1 This company is the heir of Protar and should know something about it . And they are not to blame directly for the poor quality of the kit .

They also could know something  about the origin of the master model.

Sam and Roy , as we can all see you are both real gentlemen ! I´m really glad about your  good will ! . Let´s keep on trucking !

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Yes, Hannes, why not? I can do that, as I am not too bad in italian. Did you get the german article I sent you yesterday, coming from Paul?

P.S: I am so pleased we are all together now... thanks to Roy and Sam, they can get a free dental cleaning when they want, as of course all the dream team 

Edited January 18, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
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[Roy vd M.]

24 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

they can get a free dental cleaning when they want, as of course all the dream team 

 

Ha I might take you up on that. Funny story: I had an appointment with the dentist but cancelled that yesterday because I'll visit Paris during Retromobile to see the Delages. New appointment for the 30th of January... which, as I learned today, will also have to be cancelled because I will visit Paris also then, this time for (profession-related) study purposes.  

 

If this goes on, visiting your dentistry would even be logistically less daunting than visiting my own dentist 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

12 minutes ago, Roy vd M. said:

If this goes on, visiting your dentistry would even be logistically less daunting than visiting my own dentist 

My offer is serious! 

Sure you will have a lot of fun at Retromobile!

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , now I got  the Geman article . It will take some time until my translation will be done : There also are some pages written in Italian language. My shool-Latin does not suffice for a translation , so others are requested for that . I´ll read it now and will tell you important discoveries soon !  Hannes

[Hannes]

These 3 italian pages are records of test runs in August 1927 . What I read till now is worth every cent and dollar for these informations .It will become very exciting for all of us , believe me.

The article was written about 1967 and the author also interviewed Massiminio. I will make my translations not in one single post but in several . I also won´t translate word by word , I´ll make free translations without skipping informations . Enjoy !  Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Dear Hannes,

if you want, get focused on the german article, I will try to translate the italian docs.

Best regards

Olivier

 

This first document that seems dated 23/9/1927 is probably handwritten by Alberto Massimino. In the La Sicilia interview, he explained he worked night and day to find the solution to the front axle vibration. This doc, IMHO, is a piece of this work he did, while Zerbi was working on his side on the engine reliability.

It is an historic document, that ever proves one thing (if the date is confirmed): the car was not scrapped just after the race. The doc that says the contrary is wrong. Personally, I was sure of that, because I don't see why Massimino, 40 years later, would have lied in the interview. I recommend you to read again this interview, very important IMHO.

It is true that I translated it in french and not in english...

 

What I read in italian (some words are difficult to read, I would need help from an italian car engineer...):

 

Vettura 504 (as for drawing 2, l'ufficio tecnico goes on calling the car 504):

 

la flessibilità dell'assale era di 1 mm per 100 kg di carico (the axle flexibility was of 1 mm for 100 kg load.)

 

lunghezza sbarra d'accopiamento: 1129 (lenght of the tie rod: 1129)

 

..... ..... che l'assale si fletta sul punto centrale  (..... ..... that the axle bends on the central point)

 

Si suppone che in un .... ...., il carico dinamico sià il doppio di quello statico, .... di 900 kg (statico 450) l'aumentà è di 450 KG e la flessione de 4,5.... (we suppose in a .... ..., the dynamic load is the dobble from the static one, .... of 900 kg (static 450), the raise is of 450kg and the bending is 4,5....)

 

La sfera (?) della sbarra d'accoppiamento derriverà (?) a grosso modo un ... di archio di raggio A-B e di (?) not understood that

 

 

La ...  sbarra d'accoppiamento avra coso tendenza a raccorciersi di una quantità C (the .... tie rod will tend to get shorter of an amount C)

 

Si noi riportiamo in pianta questa quantita C su di un distancio di leva di lunghezza = 165 si trova un K = (if we report on a plan this C amount on a distance ... of lenght 165, we get a K=   (?)

 

Well, if it is a little hebrew for me, it is meanwhile clear that Massimino is trying to solve the vibration problem on the front axle, in the view of the next G.P at Brooklands. Pity, Agnelli will decide differently...

Edited January 19, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
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[Totally Mad Olivier]

This second italian doc sent by Paul Kierstein relates the tests Fiat made at Monza between the 21/8 and the 25/8/1927, a few days before the race. 

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
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[Totally Mad Olivier]

On 06/01/2017 at 6:23 PM, Olivier de St Raph said:

"On s'est retiré de la compétition" (title)

 

Pour un simple défaut au niveau de l'essieu avant de la fameuse 806/406, le sénateur Agnelli a ordonné en 1927 la destruction de tout le matériel de course. A 40 ans de distance, retrouvez les dessins de cette voiture révolutionnaire (at the Centro Storico?). I have been in contact with La Sicilia, no drawing was joined to this article.

 

Modène, 17 octobre:

"C'est de ma faute si Fiat s'est retiré de la compétition en 1927 et si le sénateur Agnelli a ordonné la destruction de tout le matériel de course", telles sont les affirmations stupéfiantes d'un fameux concepteur, l'ingénieur Alberto Massimino, le père de la fameuse 806/406.

A l'occasion du Salon de Turin l'an dernier, au cours d'une visite au "Centro Storico" Fiat via Marconi, un responsable de la Maison nous a confié qu'il était impossible de reconstruire le modèle réduit de la fameuse "Grand Prix" qui avait eu une vie si brève et qui fut l'ultime voiture de course de Fiat, celle qui avait déterminé son retrait de la compétition.

Ce responsable n'était autre qu'Alberto Massimino, et il allait nous faire découvrir, lors de ces journées, tous les précieux dessins.

"En 1925, je travaillais - affirme notre interlocuteur - dans l'équipe de Me Cavalli, et fus chargé de réaliser les premiers esquisses du chassis, tandis que l'ing. Zerbi se voyait confier la partie moteur.

En 1926, la carrosserie fut élaborée, toujours selon mes dessins.

La même année, la voiture était déjà prête. Deux moteurs furent construits: le 451, moteur à 2 temps avec compresseur, 6 cylindres et 12 pistons opposés, et puis le moteur 406 à 12 cylindres sur 2 rangées parallèles de 6 cyl. avec 3 arbres à cames en tête.

Les moteurs ne devaient pas excéder les 1500 cm3 réglementaires et la voiture ne devait pas excéder 700 kgs à vide.

La Sicilia: "Combien de chevaux développait ce moteur?

A.M: De 165 à 175 ch entre 8000 et 8500 tours. Le moteur, cependant, était fragile, et c'est pourquoi la voiture fut inscrite au G.P "Città di Milano", disputé sur seulement 50 kms (5 tours de piste).

Mais, lors des essais, en plus des problèmes de fiabilité du moteur, s'est révélé un défaut dans le chassis que j'ai construit: il s'agissait d'une vibration de la roue avant gauche, impossible à supprimer, malgré tous les renforts appliqués au chassis et toutes les autres modifs.

Toutefois, la voiture remporta nettement, avec Bordino au volant, le G.P di Milano.

Des programmes ambitieux avaient été mis en place pour cette voiture.

Il y avait la perspective du G.P d'Angleterre le 1er octobre 1927.

J'ai travaillé sur cet essieu jour et nuit. Il s'agissait en effet pour Fiat en compétition d'un tournant décisif.

Déjà, à la suite de ces problèmes techniques, des dissensions étaient apparues entre Cavalli, le responsable du programme "course", et la direction générale, autrement dit Agnelli.

"A-t-il trouvé la cause du problème?" s'impatientait le patron...

- Finalement, je parvins - poursuit Massimino ému - à mettre en évidence que le défaut devait venir de la forme particulière de l'essieu avant. J'allais aussitôt annoncer à Me Cavalli que le problème était identifié et qu'on pourrait très vite y remédier. 

Mais Cavalli me répondit: "Trop tard, Massimino". A cause de ces contretemps, Fiat avait décidé de renoncer à participer aux futures courses automobiles...

Agnelli, malgré les suppliques de son auxiliaire, ordonna la destruction de tout le matériel  de course, afin qu'aucune trace ne reste de cette période, une période qui aura été pour Fiat une des plus glorieuses."

Quand il fut décidé de construire ce magnifique "Centro Storico"  qui regroupe toute l'activité de Fiat dans tous les secteurs, les techniciens, pour réaliser les modèles réduits, recoururent aux dessins, et trouvèrent une bonne partie du matériel, mais pas ceux de la 806, parce qu'il les ont cherchés en tant que tels, alors que la voiture avait été camouflée sous la dénomination tourisme "504".

40 ans plus tard, Massimino nous donne la possibilité de retrouver ces fameux dessins, qui témoignent de solutions d'avant-garde, comme le moteur décentré pour abaisser le poste de pilotage, l'extrême fractionnement de la cylindrée pour diminuer l'inertie des pièces en mouvement et ainsi, autoriser des régimes moteur élevés, ou encore l'étude minutieuse de la carrosserie, le servo frein et un ensemble de techniques encore d'actualité aujourd'hui.

 

IMHO, this article is fundamental, I would say existential. It justifies all our research and will to make a model that reproduces accurately this amazing car for the first time since 1927.

This is the french translation of the article in La Sicilia, that I published on the thread in p. 49. It is in my view so important that I post it again. If you need, I will translate it in english...

Edited January 19, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
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[sharknose156]

@Olivier de St Raph

 

Excellent effort.  Soon we need a proper bibliography and index for this.

 

By the way, if you intend to publish a book dear Olivier on the 806 you need to strategize on how you wish to manage all this precious data.  I recommend you seek the advice of your friend Mr. Faures.

 

all this information from different sources is worth consolidating in a new book on this amazing car. Including how to build a model as an appendix. 

 

this would be what Osprey does for aviation scale modeling; excellent books part history and part building a highly detailed model

Edited January 18, 2017 by sharknose156

[Totally Mad Olivier]

On 06/01/2017 at 9:33 AM, Roy vd M. said:

Conosciamo solo la flessibilita della sospensione anteriore: diciamo all'incirca 1 mm per 100 kg di carico. 
Ruote: solito tipo a raggi tangenti con unico attacco centrale con vite a galletto tipo Rudge Whitworth. Pnematici (Pirelli) 800x130 ovvero, in pollici, 29 x 5,25. Per l'epoca la gommatura uguale sui due assali era abbastanza normale. 
Frenata d'esercizio sulle quattro ruote: freni a tamburo (tutte le mascelle erano autofrenanti) a comando meccanico integrato da servofreno meccanico; invece nelle precedenti G.P. Fiat il servofreno era ad azione pneumatica (depressione).
Interessante questo servofreno: e del tipo Hallot (messo a punto sin dal 1903 dal tecnico francese Paolo Hallot): una puleggia di diametro piuttosto grosso (nel caso della "806" era di 165 mm) prende il moto dal contralbero del cambio (alberino trasversale con vite tangenziale), e quindi e dotata di una propria energia rotatoria direttamente proporzionale alla velocita del veicolo. Lo sforzo del guidatore viene pertanto moltiplicato dall'energia della puleggia mediante contatti a strisciamento: con effetto centrifugo, sono gli stessi che in caso di bloccaggio delle ruote in frenata slittano e riducono l'azione del servofreno ottenendo cosi un certo effetto di autoregolazione nella frenata. Freno a mano agente sulle ruote posteriori: comando a leva sulla destra. 

 

Translation:

We know only the flexibility of the front suspension: let's say roughly 1 mm to 100 kg load.
Wheels: usually type in bribes rays with single central connection with thumbscrew type Rudge Whitworth. TYRES (Pirelli) 800x130 or, in inches, 29 x 5.25. For the time gumming equal on both axles it was pretty normal.
Brake operating on all four wheels: drum brakes (all jaws were brake) mechanical control integrated mechanical brake assist; however in previous G.P. Fiat was the brake servo pneumatic action (depression).
Interesting this booster: and type Hallot (developed since 1903 by the French coach Paul Hallot): a pulley of a rather large diameter (in the case of "806" was 165 mm) is driven by the countershaft gear (cross-post with tangential screw), and then and equipped with its own rotational energy directly proportional to the vehicle speed. Driver effort is therefore multiplied by the energy of the pulley by means of sliding contacts: with centrifugal effect, are the same as in case of locking of the wheels during braking slip and reduce the action of the brake booster, thus obtaining a certain effect of self-regulation in the braking . hand brake on the rear wheels: a lever on the right.

The handwritten paper from probably Massimino reminded me this article Roy translated from an italian magazine published in 1974. Here is the extract about the supension...

[Totally Mad Olivier]

17 minutes ago, sharknose156 said:

@Olivier de St Raph

 

Excellent effort.  Soon we need a proper bibliography and index for this.

 

By the way, if you intend to publish a book dear Olivier on the 806 you need to strategize on how you wish to manage all this precious data.  I recommend you seek the advice of your friend Mr. Faures.

 

all this information from different sources is worth consolidating in a new book on this amazing car. Including how to build a model as an appendix. 

 

this would be what Osprey does for aviation scale modeling; excellent books part history and part building a highly detailed model

Dear Sam,

 

I am not sure I will dive in such an adventure... I am afraid of boring stuff with editing. We shall see, but first, now, as soon as I feel well (I am still a bit tired by that awful influenza and I can't work more than 1 h on my build). In this context of illness, I must say seeing all the team again together, with Roy, was a Sunbeam (without word play...) for me!

[sharknose156]

@Olivier de St Raph

 

Get well soon, mon cher ami 

[Hannes]

Today seems to be a translation day , so I start with my translation too! The article is named :: When Fiat gave up racing sports - the history of the Fiat racing car 806 , written by Gianni Rogliatti , about 1967 .

Chapter 1

Even if the history of the automobile is only a short period of time , most stories about famous cars are not reliable due secrecy mistakes , inaccuracy and also too much eagerness.

One example is the story of the 806 .

At the end of 1927 Fiat announced to retrieve from racing sports , a decision which lasts till today .

To be more precisely : The same announcement was already made 1925 after the successful operations with the compressor 805 , which was copied not only in Italy but also abroad :

This announcement was only made for the public and should prevent the interests of unpleasant competitors.

The Jano - episode still was in bad remembrance when Alfa Romeo developed a competative racing car :

For that reason all security measures were taken , when when a new racing car for the coming 1,5 litres formula  was designed .

The technical director of that time was the famous attorney from Torino Carlo Cavalli . His assistant was the engineer Tranquillo Zerbi ,responsible for the engine `s construction .

The decision to build a new racing car was already made at the beginning of 1925 , but the whole project was completely camouflaged .

It´s not yet known if this secrecy was necessary to mislead spies or to deceive Fiat-boss Agnelli .But it´s a fact , the new car  had the name " tipo 504 " .

At this time the model row of Fiat was numbered from 500 upwards .

These well - known passenger coaches had the numbers 501 , 502 , 503 and 505 .

But the 504 was missing and that´s the reason I decided to research the history behind that apparently unimportant interruption of the series.

I was talking with a lot of people including Alberto Massimino , former Fiat designer later working for Maserati and Ferrari and now chief designer of Serenissima.

Massimino was one of the co - workers for the the construction of the 504 - later called 806 .

 

End of chapter 1  ,need a break now .. Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I began the translation of the other italian doc, tests a few days before the race. It is a long work. I will post as soon as it is over....

 

[NickD]

Chaps,

 

Those documents are unbelievable. Bravo. What a tenacious bunch of people.

 

Nick

[harveyb258]

Wow guys! I'm "blown away" by all these fantastic discoveries. 

Things [new findings] had started to slow down and I really didn't think we were going to obtain any more, but it is gift that just keeps on giving!
 

A HUGE THANK YOU to everybody involved in this fascinating project!

 

Cheers, H